L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

mlund

First Post
I'll be really enthused to see what a background in Healing Arts (first aid, herbs, alchemy, chakra manipulation, or whatever is germane to the setting) can do with relation to Hit Dice healing. Setting a hard minimum result per dice, a static bonus, or even allowing a check to recover a Hit Die - all of these things could finally make the non-caster healer a relevant contributor for a low-magic party without blatant house-rules.

I'm hoping to at least to see an optional injury mechanic that could accumulate with bloodied / down status changes and perhaps for things like poison, disease, or specialty attacks. Linking it into Hit Dice and needing Healing Skills or Magical Healing would add a layer of simulation that I'd enjoy.

- Marty Lund
 

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Keldryn

Adventurer
I've liked most of what I've heard about D&D Next so far, but I can't say I like the sound of this. I'm not opposed to non-magical healing, and there were things that I liked about 4e's healing mechanics.

My main issue with this approach is that it sounds too fiddly and complicated for my liking. Spending hit dice to heal means another figure to have to track, and I really hope that multi-classing as a fighter 3/wizard 3 (for example) doesn't give you 3d4 and 3d10 to spend.

One of my group's complaints about 4e was that you have to keep track of three different values (hit points, healing surges, temporary hit points) instead of just "hit points." This doesn't really sound a whole lot better to me in terms of in-game tracking.

For the most part, I think that 4e is an amazingly well-designed, flexible, and streamlined game. Unfortunately, I find it to be weighed down by such a mass of fiddly bits to keep track of that I don't enjoy playing it. I'd hate to see the same happen with 5e.

We'll see how it works once the playtest materials are out.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
In no edition of the game have hitpoints been only physical damage. I do not get it. I do not understand why people continue to be opposed to what was written in that article, since it is pretty much what gygax wrote many years ago.

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Mallus

Legend
"Hello Hit Points my old friend
I've come to talk about you again
Because an orc came up softly creeping
While I was passed out drunk and sleeping
And his battleaxe was left planted in my brain
But 3 HP remain
(So I'm still okay)
And not listening to the sounds of silence" -- apologies to Simon and Garfunkel.

I'm fine with Hit Dice-as-the-new-surge-mechanic, so long as HP totals are kept closer to their OD&D/AD&D levels, and medium-term debilitation from HP loss in a part of the game.

Also... for all those people rhapsodizing about how, back in the day "PCs needed days to heal up, even with a cleric in the party", one question:

Did you ever express that sentiment at the table, during actual play?

I remember playing old-school D&D, too (and I run in now). I recall players wanting as much healing as could possibly be cajoled out of the DM (and being damn happy when they got it).

Having our PCs laid up for a week or more was not a source of delight...
 
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TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Its old-schooled healing surges.

They seem to have addressed:

-HP bloat
-Runaway in-combat healing
-Lack of risk in hp loss, including through the need to roll for recovery and slower mundane healing
-World consistency ("fluff") issues

They do not fully address

-extra fidlliness, including having to track them and HP.

But if the overall system is streamlined, the last might be ok.
 

nnms

First Post
Is tracking them really going to be that fiddly? Here's the worst case scenario, a triple class Fighter/Cleric/Mage:

Hit Dice:
d10: 3 d8: 3 d6: 2

That's it. That's what you need on your character sheet. And if you don't have access to different die sizes, it'll look like this:

Hit Dice (d8): 8

So fiddly! ;)
 

Dausuul

Legend
I don't get why is unconsciousness tied to HP? People can be unconscious and healthy, and they can be dying and lucid.
I know all (most?) older editions have this rule, but it never made sense to me.

Originally, there was no unconsciousness threshold. There were only two states of being: Alive and fighting, or dead. If you hit zero hit points, you'd kicked the bucket, shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. You were an ex-adventurer.

This was fine when D&D was basically a wargame, and PCs were disposable game pieces. However, as people began to identify with their characters and want to keep them around for long periods, the idea that you weren't necessarily all dead at zero hit points became popular. Unconsciousness served as a nice intermediate stage. A PC reduced to zero was still out of the fight, and would be a while recovering (in 2E you couldn't just drop a couple cure spells on the mostly-dead, they were out for days at a minimum), but wasn't gone for good. To make things a little edgier, they added ongoing hit point loss and the need for stabilization.

For something that wasn't so much designed as evolved, it's a pretty good system. Once you're unconscious, there's no reason for the monsters to keep pounding you unless the DM is feeling exceptionally spiteful, so your main worry is stabilizing before you bleed out or fail your third death save. As long as your fellow party members are on the ball, they can save you. I think 3E and 4E made it too simple to get an unconscious PC back up, but that's mostly a matter of taste.

Fiction-wise, I agree that it's kind of weird you always end up unconscious before you die. But it's a useful cheat.
 
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mlund

First Post
Fiction-wise, I agree that it's kind of weird you always end up unconscious before you die. But it's a useful cheat.

Well, you aren't always unconscious before you die. In 3E you could get dropped to positive HP to -10 HP pretty easily, and you could always fail a massive damage save. There were also save-or-die effects.

In 4E you needed to go to - Bloodied. That basically never happens except by falling off a cliff into a super-massive black hole that happens to be on fire - or you got caught in the blast of one too many Area of Effect attacks while you were down.

The proposals I've seen so far for 5E interest me - especially HP thresholds for being turned to stone and whatnot. It kind of parlays the best of both worlds on save-or-die attacks and massive damage. I'll be interested to see how negative HP impacts magical and mundane healing as well as where the "sorry, you croaked" threshold comes into play.

- Marty Lund
 

Tovec

Explorer
I imagine it's like this:

Short rest: Spend any number of HD to regain HP.
Long rest: Spend any number of HD to regain HP, then regain X HD.

X might be "Roll whatever type of die your HD is."
More like..

Short rest: Spend HD to regain HP.
Long rest: Regain HD. (You don't need to spend HD then regain them as you can just short rest before or after a long rest).

This is just my guess from my reading of the article, but: after a long rest, a 1st-level fighter regains 1 Hit Dice. When he takes a short rest, he can expend that Hit Dice to regain 1d10 hit points.

At higher levels, it is not clear:

1. What is the maximum number of Hit Dice each character can have. A number equal to level seems likely (i.e. a 9th-level character can have a maximum of 9 Hit Dice), but any fraction or multiple of level (half level, twice level, etc.) could also be possible.

2. How many Hit Dice are regained per long rest. Most likely, it will be a fraction of the maximum Hit Dice (one-third, half) so that it will take a character a few days to completely recover from being brought down to 0 hit points.

Another point that seems very likely at the moment is that the average number of hit points that can be regained from a character's maximum Hit Dice will be less than the character's full normal hit points. This means that a character's hit point reserve, in the form of Hit Dice, will be far shallower than in 4e. So over the course of an adventuring day, you might see a character expending all his Hit Dice to regain 50%, 75%, or (with a series of lucky rolls) 100% of his full normal hit points before he needs rest for at least a few days. That would address the criticism that 4e characters recover hit points too quickly, both in terms of a single adventuring day (where it is theoretically possible, though unlikely, to go from full hp to 0 hp and back to full hp two, three or more times per day) and from a day to day basis (because all hit points and healing surges are recovered after an extended rest).
I hope, if anything, it looks like your first paragraph. I doubt it will (see below about "grittiness").

The only other question I have is what happens if 5e allows multiclassing resembling 3e's? With different classes with different HD values. How will they get HD then? Will they use the highest, or the lowest, or both. What order to they regenerate them? Level fist acquired, last acquired, lowest value first, highest first?

To me it is less about having HD to maintain and record, though that is certainly an issue, but what about the countless unanticipated questions that arise through this system. I don't see HD for non-magical healing to be intuitive enough to be able to resolve these questions any way other way than houseruling or asking the designers.

But what does the difference mean?

On a long rest does a level 1 fighter gain 1d10 HP, 10 HP, or 1 HD which requires another rest to gain HP?

Also..

HEALING HERBS!!!!!
I suspect the reference to healing herbs was the fluff associated with HOW they are regaining HP through HD. Not the actual mechanic itself.

B. Divorcing mundane healing (HD healing) from magical healing is a big plus IMO, first of all the fact that each character don't have a base of 125% of its hp is a good step forward to combat hp bloat, both on the character side and more importantly in the monsters side.

How are they divorced exactly? Now they have a base of 100%+HD instead of 100%+SW[mitigated by HS]

Warlord healing can constantly keep the party at top shape and always at high morale. But morale can't heal wounds and "bloodied" and dying allies can't be heal by the warlord.
I agree on the "can't heal dying" part but not so sure about "bloodied", assuming they can still heal "non-blooded".

This is part of the reason I dislike HP as morale and don't use it that way.

I would argue that if you do not like hitpoints, you should find a different game. They are part of d&d. I am pretty much cool with any method of recovery, as to me it just isn't the key part of the game.

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What about Wound Points? I seem to recall countless people use that variant. I don't think the game should be about excluding people. People can excuse themselves if they don't like the game, but the game should never not like them.

I don't get why is unconsciousness tied to HP? People can be unconscious and healthy, and they can be dying and lucid.
I know all (most?) older editions have this rule, but it never made sense to me.

This is actually a rather large gripe I have with HP as they currently exist and doubly so with this new system. I think a hard look should have been taken at HP, how they recovered, how damage is dealt, what counts towards it and of course looking at how non-lethal and unconsciousness works.

Hit Die recovery rates vary depending on preferred "grittiness":

Gritty game: recover 1 HD/extended rest
Default game: recovery half level (round up) HD/extended rest
Action hero game: recover all HD/extended rest

Option 1 "Grittiness" is exactly what I want to see. I expect to see more along the lines of "Default" and "Action Hero" and that is what really disappoints me.

Its old-schooled healing surges.

They seem to have addressed:

-HP bloat
-Runaway in-combat healing
-Lack of risk in hp loss, including through the need to roll for recovery and slower mundane healing
-World consistency ("fluff") issues
It doesn't address any of those.

- In character creation you can still get X number of HP. All this does is HEAL that HP total. Not manage it.
- It doesn't mention combat healing at all. In fact it is a method to not need a healer. Imagine what happens if you DO have one.
- Once again, it doesn't touch how HP are lost, only how they are recovered. The article was about HP RECOVERY not about loss. The scorpion will still deal 3 damage either way.
- How is it consistent that 3 HP on round one is a barely noticeable scratch but the same 3 HP damage in round two is "looking like you got into a fight"?
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
Reactions to this article seem to be a tell-tale sign between those who care about compromise and those that want their thing and their thing only, come hell or high water. :p

I'm not sure that it's the best way to handle it, but will be rather amusing, from a historical perspective, if the "hit die" cap out at "name level."
 

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