Save or suck Medusa petrification

Ok, Imaro, answer me this then.

When the DM determines the rate at which random encounters are checked for AND the odds of them occuring, how is he not determining the pace of the game?

If I say that I will check for random encounters 1/hour at a 1 in 8 chance, there is a very good chance that the group will be able to rest pretty much whenever it wants. OTOH, if I set the chances at 1/10 minutes with a 1 in 6 chance, then the party will be getting interupted all the time.

So, how is that not controlling pacing? Ok, yup, you're right, he doesn't control it minute by minute, but, he sure as heck has a great deal of control over the pacing.

Additionally, since the DM is setting up static encounters, he can also set the pacing of the adventure. Placing more monsters will result in more encounters. That's pretty self evident. Placing less monsters means that the group will go through larger areas between requiring rests.

Again, the DM, while it's true he can't micromanage pacing, he is most certainly controlling the pace of that game to a degree that the players cannot possibly match. The players simply do not have enough control to be able to set the pacing to the degree that the DM does.

And, if you'll remember, you claimed it was the players who set the pacing. Even if you refuse to accept the DM is setting it, and stay with the idea that pacing is set by random checks - the players are STILL not in control of pacing. Either way, it's never the players who control pacing.

Hussar said:

Ok, Imaro, answer me this then.

When the DM determines the rate at which random encounters are checked for AND the odds of them occuring, how is he not determining the pace of the game?

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Unless the rate at which randome encounters is the exact same, everywhere at every time... then he isn't. He's setting up choices for the PC's to make to determine their own pace. If the chance of encountering dangerous monsters is the same in a fortified town during daytime as it is in the Bone Hills at night... that's a poorly constructed sandbox.

Hussar said:

If I say that I will check for random encounters 1/hour at a 1 in 8 chance, there is a very good chance that the group will be able to rest pretty much whenever it wants. OTOH, if I set the chances at 1/10 minutes with a 1 in 6 chance, then the party will be getting interupted all the time.

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Right, and again if every area at every time has the exact same encounter chances and monsters... then yes you are controlling the pace... but then you aren't playing in a sandbox. You've created an environment where choice is meaningless and that is definitely antithesis to the ideals of a sandbox. A better question is why the Flowered Meadows during the daytime have the exact same chance of encounters and the exact same monsters (because otherwise difficulty is also a factor of choice) as the Dreaded Marsh of the Hag Queen? If they don't then right there the PC's have a choice in the pacing of encounters.

Hussar said:

So, how is that not controlling pacing? Ok, yup, you're right, he doesn't control it minute by minute, but, he sure as heck has a great deal of control over the pacing.

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Oh it is controlling pacing... it's just not controlling it in a (well constructed) sandbox.

Hussar said:

Additionally, since the DM is setting up static encounters, he can also set the pacing of the adventure. Placing more monsters will result in more encounters. That's pretty self evident. Placing less monsters means that the group will go through larger areas between requiring rests.

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No, placing more monsters does not guarantee more encounters. The PC's can find ways to avoid the encounters, they can go in a different direction, start fires to force the monsters back out of the area, hell they can hire some henchmen and hirelings to go clear some of that area out for them. You're assuming that there's only one answer to the situation... and my players are much more creative than walk in a straight line from encounter to encounter and fight.

Hussar said:

Again, the DM, while it's true he can't micromanage pacing, he is most certainly controlling the pace of that game to a degree that the players cannot possibly match. The players simply do not have enough control to be able to set the pacing to the degree that the DM does.

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He's influencing it, which I said awhile back... but it's the PC's and chance that are actually controlling it. The DM can make this harder or easier but without going to extremes (and basically stopping the sandbox from being a sandbox) he doesn't control it.

Hussar said:

And, if you'll remember, you claimed it was the players who set the pacing. Even if you refuse to accept the DM is setting it, and stay with the idea that pacing is set by random checks - the players are STILL not in control of pacing. Either way, it's never the players who control pacing.

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I said players and randomness set it, you keep trying to ignore the fact that I acknowledged randomness as a factor along with the PC's and I think I've pretty well demonstrated how the PC's control the pacing in a real sandbox through their choices. Again unless the DM goes to extremes, in which case he's not running a sandbox the PC's and randomness dictate pacing in a sandbox. You have yet to give a concrete example of how the DM controls (not influences) pacing in a sandbox environment.

Wait, what?

Who said anything about setting a single rate of random encounters for all locations? The DM sets the rate of random encounters based on whatever pace he wants to set. If he wants more random encounters, thus a different pace, or if he wants less, it's still up to the DM in the sandbox to do that.

I'm really losing track of what you're trying to claim here.

So, the DM, apparently now has to set one and only one rate of random encounters? What kind of game do you play?

And, I'm really, REALLY not in the mood for this level of pedantry trying to distinguish between "influence" and "control". Yeah, because THAT'S the key issue here.

Meh, I get the feeling you're just taking the piss now and deliberately pulling my leg. There's just no way you're actually saying what you seem to be saying. I'll be bowing out now, because my "taking the piss" tolerance is FAR too low at the moment.

Hussar said:

Wait, what?

Who said anything about setting a single rate of random encounters for all locations? The DM sets the rate of random encounters based on whatever pace he wants to set. If he wants more random encounters, thus a different pace, or if he wants less, it's still up to the DM in the sandbox to do that.

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And after the DM sets these different encounters for the locations... how is it determined which if any of them will set the pace for the actual game during gameplay?? THE PLAYERS by choosing what area to explore...

Hussar said:

I'm really losing track of what you're trying to claim here.

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It's really not that hard to keep up with. But I think it's moreso that you're seeing the holes in your assumptions.

Hussar said:

So, the DM, apparently now has to set one and only one rate of random encounters?

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If he is supposedly controlling the pacing like you claim... then yes, otherwise as I stated above the PC's choices will determine the pacing... and even this doesn't preclude a certain amount of randomness in the rolls for encounters... So again... PC's + randomness

Hussar said:

What kind of game do you play?

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One where the PC's and randomness determine pacing.

Hussar said:

And, I'm really, REALLY not in the mood for this level of pedantry trying to distinguish between "influence" and "control". Yeah, because THAT'S the key issue here.

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As an example... I can influence what another player does with his character through the actions of my own character, what I can't do is (barring magic or some other special rule) control another players character. See the BIG difference there...It's not pedantry it's the gaping whole in your argument.

Hussar said:

Meh, I get the feeling you're just taking the piss now and deliberately pulling my leg. There's just no way you're actually saying what you seem to be saying. I'll be bowing out now, because my "taking the piss" tolerance is FAR too low at the moment.

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Wow, really?? It would have been much simpler to admit you were wrong than to try to paint my argument in a negative light... Here's a quick and dirty summary...

The only way the DM controls pacing in a sandbox game is if he keeps the encounter rate the same in every area at every time, otherwise both the PC's( with their choices) and the randomness of the encounter tables will determine pacing. It's not pedantry, it's simple logic and I think you know that, but instead of just admitting that and moving on now my argument is too confusing... whatever man.

Imaro said:

You're assuming that most of the time PC's are flying blind... when in fact this is again a function of the PC's chosen course of action. Exploring the setting =/= flying blind

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At least as far as the playtest is concerned, the rules for exploration are pretty thin.

There's a lot of detail on how to kill an orc. Not so much on how to interrogate one. Or how to meet up with and get rumour from previous orc hunters.

There's not even an augury/omen/portent-type spell.

Sorrowdusk said:

Exactly that's why it's scary.

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According to the How to Play document, a character who meets the medusa's gaze won't turn to stone if a CON save is made. So if meeting the gaze of the medusa of myth turns you to stone full stop end of story, then the D&Dnext medusa is not the medusa of myth.

pemerton said:

At least as far as the playtest is concerned, the rules for exploration are pretty thin.

There's a lot of detail on how to kill an orc. Not so much on how to interrogate one. Or how to meet up with and get rumour from previous orc hunters.

There's not even an augury/omen/portent-type spell.

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But we weren't speaking specifically to the playtest adventure.