D&D General Vote Up a 5e-Alike: Fighter Draft 2, plus Archetypes (and a poll)

[CreamCloud0]

probably not quite the right thread but for this specifically but it's related to the current discussion of the poll's results, this is my interpretation of how the base classes and floating archetypes would've panned out, each of the 7 base classes would've shared a core mechanic with their two 'associated' subclasses, taking an associated subclass improves your total access to the mechanic but is not reliant on having the base class, and you could pair any class with any archetype, so with 7 classes and 14 archetypes to pair them it results in 98 possible combinations.

Base Class	Base Class Mechanics	Class/Archetype Shared Mechanics	Associated Archetype 1	Archetype Mechanics	Associated Archetype 2	Archetype Mechanics
Fighter	Full Martial Wpn Prof/Wpn Mastery	Maneuvre Dice/Fighting Styles	Battlemaster	Action Surge/ Second Wind	Warlord	Tactician's Guidance
Rogue	Thieves Tools + Trap Mastery	Sneak attack/ Expertise	Assassin	Master Poisoner/ Favoured Enemy	Ranger	Sharpshooting/ Herbalism
Monk	Improved Mobility/Purity of Self	Unarmoured Defence/Ki	Unarmed Warrior	Improved Unarmed Attacks	Beserker	Rage
Wizard	Arcane Fullcaster	Ritual Casting	Researcher	Scroll Master	Artificer	Magical Infusions
Cleric	Divine Fullcaster	Channel Divinity	Warder	Aura of Protection	Paladin	Smiting Attack, Lay-On Hands
Druid	Primal Fullcaster	Natural Explorer	Shifter	Wildshape	Beastmaster	Improved Animal Companion
Warlock	Pact Magic	Eldritch Invocations/Versatile Magic	Cursed One	Pact Boons	Lesser Mage	Halfcasting

 

[Faolyn]

maybe it's just cause i thought the class/archetype mix-n-match aspect and choose-your-own class building blocks design was much more supported in the initial stages of these threads but seeing 'fighter/barb/paladin should be their own classes' be so high voted is throwing me and kind of feel like a reversal of interests. though i must assume it's the same people voting in these polls and we haven't got a different crowd for different polls

I'd love to do the class/archetype mix-n-match (I have no problem tossing out this entire Warrior class) but I think we would have to really work on the basic chassis of all classes first. Which is completely doable, but I would really need some help to figure that out. And I also fully admit that I'm really doing this backwards--but that's ADHD for ya; class design holds my attention more than figuring out combat.

Anyhoo. So, OK. Let's say that we have the following classes: bard, berserker, cleric, druid, fighter, monk (to be renamed?), paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, warlord (to be renamed?) wizard. I'm not quite so daring as to want to also include an artificer and psion right away. Unless people have Ideas for them.

Now, even if we don't combine martials into a single class, I wouldn't mind trimming the number of classes down anyway. If only because it's easier. I like your list of base classes, although I wouldn't mind sticking a bard in there. But if we decide to keep all the classes, they'd need to be rather simple, and the archetypes a bit more complex. The only things a berserker would get are higher HD and rage; the only thing a cleric would get are a very basic channel divinity (turn some sort of supernatural being) and spells. Obviously shared archetypes don't have to be made available to every class, but they could be. So, some possible shared archetypes:

Archer. Any; the abilities could even be usable on cantrips (since we've decided that only cantrips and certain iconic spells will be damage-dealing).

Beastmaster: Any; if the base class is a martial, the beast could be either a Small/Medium combat-capable creature or a Medium/Large mount. If the base class is an "expert" type, the beast could be stealthier (e.g., a bird trained for surveillance or a rat or monkey trained to filch keys and other small items). If the base class is a caster, the beast could be an advanced familiar.

Brawler: Martial/expert only; heavier reliance on unarmed attacks and for monks that rely on strength.

Demon/Dragon/Elemental/Spirit/Death/Fey-Bound: Any; they could imbue attacks and spells with specialized energy and would gain access to a few other abilities. (Obviously, this would actually be multiple different archetypes--even I'm not crazy enough to try to make a single "Monster-Bound" class!)

Gladiator: Any; emphasis on showy abilities.

Healer: Expert/caster only; gains mundane healing ability and healing spells (in addition to whatever magic the character may already have). This could be written up like, if you have magic, expend a spell slot to perform such-and-such healing ability; otherwise, can heal Cha times/long rest. Or something like that.

Killer: Any; a basic assassin/bounty hunter/killer-for-hire type. Abilities would be more social and investigative. You could also have an Inquisitor archetype along these lines, with emphasis on ties to courts or temples.

Knight: Martial only; emphasis on courtly knowledge, honor, training, and horse-riding. Yes, you can have a knightly berserker; why not?

Loremaster: Expert/caster only; lots of knowledge-based abilities.

Monster Hunter: Any; specialized knowledge, maybe the ability to make magical charms out of dead monster parts.

Sun-Blessed/Tempest: Martial/caster only; increased movement, battlefield control, imbuing attacks and spells with fire/radiant or lightning/thunder damage.

Wildborn: Any; talk to and shapechange into plants and beasts.

 

[Lanefan]

probably not quite the right thread but for this specifically but it's related to the current discussion of the poll's results, this is my interpretation of how the base classes and floating archetypes would've panned out, each of the 7 base classes would've shared a core mechanic with their two 'associated' subclasses, taking an associated subclass improves your total access to the mechanic but is not reliant on having the base class, and you could pair any class with any archetype, so with 7 classes and 14 archetypes to pair them it results in 98 possible combinations.

Base Class	Base Class Mechanics	Class/Archetype Shared Mechanics	Associated Archetype 1	Archetype Mechanics	Associated Archetype 2	Archetype Mechanics
Fighter	Full Martial Wpn Prof/Wpn Mastery	Maneuvre Dice/Fighting Styles	Battlemaster	Action Surge/ Second Wind	Warlord	Tactician's Guidance
Rogue	Thieves Tools + Trap Mastery	Sneak attack/ Expertise	Assassin	Master Poisoner/ Favoured Enemy	Ranger	Sharpshooting/ Herbalism
Monk	Improved Mobility/Purity of Self	Unarmoured Defence/Ki	Unarmed Warrior	Improved Unarmed Attacks	Beserker	Rage
Wizard	Arcane Fullcaster	Ritual Casting	Researcher	Scroll Master	Artificer	Magical Infusions
Cleric	Divine Fullcaster	Channel Divinity	Warder	Aura of Protection	Paladin	Smiting Attack, Lay-On Hands
Druid	Primal Fullcaster	Natural Explorer	Shifter	Wildshape	Beastmaster	Improved Animal Companion
Warlock	Pact Magic	Eldritch Invocations/Versatile Magic	Cursed One	Pact Boons	Lesser Mage	Halfcasting

Fighter - Knight - Berserker
Rogue/Thief - Assassin - Swashbuckler
Wizard - Sorcerer (or Warlock) - Artificer (or Necromancer)
Cleric - Paladin - Druid
Ranger - Bard - Monk

That's 15 classes in five somewhat-fuzzy groups, the last of which is a catch-all for things that don't fit anywhere else.

All we need, I think.

 

[Faolyn]

Just bumping for visibility; still thinking about how to do all the classes.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Just bumping for visibility; still thinking about how to do all the classes.

Is there something specific you’re considering about them?

 

[Tonguez]

Just an idea for mix and match classes, it hasnt been thought through except for the idea that the Triggered Feat has to be triggered by Talent before it (so the Tempest Barbarians lightning smite can only be triggered from Rage).

Essential what it means is that a Player chooses their Base Feature and are considered that Class, then at Level X they either get the Base Talent or can mix and match other talents, then theres a big list of triggered feats that can be chosen at levels Y

NB things like Cunning Action would need to be expanded, and not sure about Warlock - I’ve wrapped patrons into Channel Divinity but they may not work…

CLASS	BASE FEATURE	SHARED TALENTS	TRIGGERED FEAT
Fighter	Martial Style	Manoeuvre	Action Surge
Cleric	Domain	Channel Divinity	Heal
Rogue	Cunning Action	Expertise	Sneak Attack
Mage	Arcane Tradition	Ritual Casting	Arcane Recovery

then derived subclasses eg

CLASS	BASE FEATURE	SHARED TALENT	TRIGGERED FEAT
Paladin	Martial Style	Channel Divinity	Smite
Tempest Barbarian	Martial Style	Rage	Smite (Elemental)
Scout	Cunning Action	Manoeuvre	Sneak Attack
Warlock	Arcane Tradition	Channel Divinty	Smite/Pact
Druid	Domain	Wild Shape (Divinity)	Heal

 

[Faolyn]

Is there something specific you’re considering about them?

Mostly how complex they should be and how much of the heavy lifting the archetypes should be. Do we give each class the bare minimum (more like AD&D did), or do we go for new traits at every level 5e does?

 

[Faolyn]

Just an idea for mix and match classes, it hasnt been thought through except for the idea that the Triggered Feat has to be triggered by Talent before it (so the Tempest Barbarians lightning smite can only be triggered from Rage).

Essential what it means is that a Player chooses their Base Feature and are considered that Class, then at Level X they either get the Base Talent or can mix and match other talents, then theres a big list of triggered feats that can be chosen at levels Y

I'm not entirely sure I follow. So, fighters would get a Martial Style and, presumably, maneuvers, and would only be able to use Action Surge if they also used Action Surge? And clerics would only get a (bonus?) healing ability if they Channeled Divinity? (Also, this seems to indicate that you think the classes should be very minimalist in nature, with the archetypes having the most features).

This actually suggests a rather different class structure, more point-buy (bit not entirely) rather than the typical D&D method. A character could pick one Base Feature and one Talent, and the combination of the two would indicate the triggered ability. When you go up in level, your Base Feature and Talent unlock new abilities. Which is very different from the norm, but not a bad idea. I actually think I like it.

So, very roughly:

Everybody gets certain features at certain levels, such as the Learnings and the Reputation. These just get additional options to make them useful for everyone. So, for Reputation, in addition to Formidable Foe, Inspiring Leader, One to be Feared, Renowned Hero, or Fearless, there's also things like Wise One, Gets The Job Done, Knower Of Dark Secrets, whatever.

Your pick a Base Feature, like Fighting Style or Spellcasting (where you pick which school of magic you can cast: arcane, divine, etc.) These abilities improve with level.

You pick a Talent, like Maneuvers or Channel Divinity. (Optionally, just call it Channeling, then warlocks and clerics can share.)

Your "Feats" (which should be renamed, so they aren't confused with regular feats or with Features) have either a Feature or a Talent as prereq (or for powerful Feats, both). There could be a lot more than what you suggest, actually. Extra Attack and Inner Fire could be Feats that require Fighting Style, for instance.

Every X number of levels, you can pick another Talent. Every Y number of levels, you can pick another Feat, as long as you have the prerequisite Talent.

Then, we include "archetypes" which are basically what you did with the derived subclasses. Take Fighting Style, Channel Divinity, and either Smite or Heal and you get a paladin.

It's very different from D&D, but I think it could potentially work very well.