Soldiers of the Blood War

Arg. double-post.

GX.Sigma said:

First paragraph under Demons and Devils (General):

"The yugoloths of Hades, caught in the midst of the war, serve as mercenaries and brokers of both power and information, playing the two sides off each other."

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Ack, I missed that! Okay, revise that to "no details on the individual yugoloths". It is nice to see they have set aside design space for them.

Wait...Hades? They used to be in Gehenna. Interesting...

Stormonu said:

Wait...Hades? They used to be in Gehenna. Interesting...

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Hades was where they originated, and they still spawn from that plane's raw stuff, but much of their kind migrated to Gehenna relatively early on in the history of the lower planes.

Oh barf. Back to Planescape. Yuck.

Look, I know that Planescape has it fans. Obviously. But, I'm sorry, the whole Blood War thing and the bogus distinction between demons and devils, and the giant bludgeoning hammer of alignment just annoys the crap out of me. Succubus are demons because they incite lust? Really? So, basically, there is absolutely no difference between a demon or a devil, both can use identical tactics, for identical reasons. Wyatt says as much in the article.

If they're the same, then why bother having two? Call them all fiends and be done with it. I do not want any Planescape in my D&D. It was a needless intrusion in 2e and continued all the way through 3e. Hey, if you like Planescape, great, but, don't cram it down my throat.

I mean, anyone who favours this article should never, ever complain about the inclusion of any setting specific material in core. Warforged darn well be 100% fine by you if you feel that it's okay to include this in the game. I better not hear a single complaint about dragonborn or blink elves ever again. After all, if it's fine to add in something so pervasive as the Blood War into core D&D, it better be fine to have technomancy in core as well.

I think this, more than anything else, is what bugs me about the whole cosmology debates that went on during 4e. It was perfectly fine for Planescape fans to ram their preferences down everyone's throats, but, we certainly can't touch anything else.

Ah well, just means I cannot use any planar based modules from WOTC. Did that throughout 2e and 3e, so, I guess 5e won't be any different.

I like the Planescape vibe, it always felt like "the" D&D mythology for me. Furthermore, yay for Blood War! I always found (as big Moorcock fan) the Law-Chaos axis a lot more interesting and inspiring than the Good-Evil axis, so everything playing up these elements and the weird fantasy vibe of Planescape gets a big plus from me.

I'm just not sure about the succubus as demon... I almost think they should ditch it completely and just give a wide variety of infernal beings from the lower planes the ability to deceive and tempt mortals (whether with power, lust or something else).

Hussar said:

Oh barf. Back to Planescape. Yuck.

Look, I know that Planescape has it fans. Obviously. But, I'm sorry, the whole Blood War thing and the bogus distinction between demons and devils, and the giant bludgeoning hammer of alignment just annoys the crap out of me. Succubus are demons because they incite lust? Really? So, basically, there is absolutely no difference between a demon or a devil, both can use identical tactics, for identical reasons. Wyatt says as much in the article.

If they're the same, then why bother having two? Call them all fiends and be done with it. I do not want any Planescape in my D&D. It was a needless intrusion in 2e and continued all the way through 3e. Hey, if you like Planescape, great, but, don't cram it down my throat.

I mean, anyone who favours this article should never, ever complain about the inclusion of any setting specific material in core. Warforged darn well be 100% fine by you if you feel that it's okay to include this in the game. I better not hear a single complaint about dragonborn or blink elves ever again. After all, if it's fine to add in something so pervasive as the Blood War into core D&D, it better be fine to have technomancy in core as well.

I think this, more than anything else, is what bugs me about the whole cosmology debates that went on during 4e. It was perfectly fine for Planescape fans to ram their preferences down everyone's throats, but, we certainly can't touch anything else.

Ah well, just means I cannot use any planar based modules from WOTC. Did that throughout 2e and 3e, so, I guess 5e won't be any different.

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Yeah, I mean I like Planescape, but not all the time. This just underlines in my mind that cosmology should be setting-specific and not a core assumption beyond "You really don't want to go out there" or "I have very little idea what's answering this summons" or my favorite "Define safe...". Maybe certain monsters hint at it, but I agree with posters calling for mystery and danger to largely rule when it comes to mortal understanding and experience of the beyond.

I mean just because the planes have been explored in depth throughout the game's history doesn't mean we have to have it in every game. Let the settings and supplements take care of it, with all the love and nostalgia required, and let DMs decide.

I get the distinct feeling after reading a bunch of these articles, WOTC is going thtough the back catalog of lore from the major settings, looking at monster/idea X, coming up with a concensus in house to pick one as "core", and then write up an article with poor multiple choice options asking us if we like it. We are going to get a little DL, a little PS, a little RL, a little GH, a little FR, etc as "core"....D&D settings are not the RPG equivalent of PB & Chocolate mixing together to a awesome end.

I look at the difference between demons and devils like this:

When a demon comes to town, the town destroys itself in an orgy of hate and destruction. The demon is a force of nature. It's not interested in anything beyond blowing things up or getting other people to blow things up. That getting other people to blow things up damns them is incidental.

When a devil comes to town, he cuts a deal with the town leaders. In exchange for one baby a year, he makes the crops grow healthy and strong every year. The townsfolk damn themselves by giving into the temptation and the devil slowly takes complete control of the town, maybe even spreading to neighbouring towns as his power grows. It's the long game and the harvesting of damned souls is the entire point.

To me, that's the difference between demons and devils. Telling me that they are essentially the same and only different on the individual level makes them all vanilla.

Hussar said:

Oh barf. Back to Planescape. Yuck.

Look, I know that Planescape has it fans. Obviously. But, I'm sorry, the whole Blood War thing and the bogus distinction between demons and devils, and the giant bludgeoning hammer of alignment just annoys the crap out of me. Succubus are demons because they incite lust? Really? So, basically, there is absolutely no difference between a demon or a devil, both can use identical tactics, for identical reasons. Wyatt says as much in the article.

If they're the same, then why bother having two? Call them all fiends and be done with it. I do not want any Planescape in my D&D. It was a needless intrusion in 2e and continued all the way through 3e. Hey, if you like Planescape, great, but, don't cram it down my throat.

I mean, anyone who favours this article should never, ever complain about the inclusion of any setting specific material in core. Warforged darn well be 100% fine by you if you feel that it's okay to include this in the game. I better not hear a single complaint about dragonborn or blink elves ever again. After all, if it's fine to add in something so pervasive as the Blood War into core D&D, it better be fine to have technomancy in core as well.

I think this, more than anything else, is what bugs me about the whole cosmology debates that went on during 4e. It was perfectly fine for Planescape fans to ram their preferences down everyone's throats, but, we certainly can't touch anything else.

Ah well, just means I cannot use any planar based modules from WOTC. Did that throughout 2e and 3e, so, I guess 5e won't be any different.

Click to expand...

Let me just say that I completely get where you are coming from. I do. Planescape stuff is so pervasive in the WotC material that I think it should be optional and give very detailed guidelines on its use so as not to overpower a setting.

With that said I think that there is going to be a default for everything but that when you do have a default it should remain consistent and faithful to itself.

Also, if dragonborn and warforged were in every setting then no one would think twice. In fact I can see very few people who would have a problem if one or both of these races existed in the MM, but many who would take issue with them being in PHB. Similarly I think the planescape stuff should be primarily in a planescape book, a rich and fully detailed one so people who want to run that setting, or a part of it, can. However, I think we'll still see some influences or references for planescape-y stuff in the monster manual. Ie. Blood War is okay to talk about but don't focus on it too much. Drow are evil elves but don't focus on it too much.

But because I want to play devils advocate and I'm a little bit of a jerk I'm going to do this..
[sblock]Oh barf. Back to Earth 616. Yuck.

Look, I know that Earth 616 has it fans. Obviously. But, I'm sorry, the whole Spiderman thing and the bogus distinction between Peter Parker and Ben Reilly, and the clone saga just annoys the crap out of me. Ben Reilly is the clone just because a test says so? Really? So, basically, there is absolutely no difference between Ben Reilly or Peter Parker, both can use identical tactics, for identical reasons. Marvel has said as much in various articles.

If they're the same, then why bother having two? Call them both spiderman and be done with it. I do not want any Spiderman in my Marvel Universe. It was a needless intrusion in the clone saga and continued all the way through to present day (more or less). Hey, if you like Ben Reilly, great, but, don't cram it down my throat.

I mean, anyone who favours this should never, ever complain about the inclusion of any random event material in core. I better not hear a single complaint about Mephisto or one more day ever again. After all, if it's fine to add in something so pervasive as the clone saga into core Marvel Universe, it better be fine to have wolverine with bone claws in universe as well.

I think this, more than anything else, is what bugs me about the whole debates that went on during Ultimate Universe. It was perfectly fine for Universe 616 fans to ram their preferences down everyone's throats, but, we certainly can't touch anything else.

Ah well, just means I cannot use any planar based modules from Marvel.[/sblock]
From my example alone it seems like you might be conflating different aspects of planescape, yugoloths, blood-war, succubi as devil and devils = demons ALL with the same article which barely touched on any of those.

Also, to draw from my example, it seems like it may be okay for them to have a core/default/original universe but no one is saying you can't also have the ultimate universe or PoL or any other setting you want. Default =/= Forced.

If you don't like the material then don't use it. You said as much yourself.

Hussar said:

I think this, more than anything else, is what bugs me about the whole cosmology debates that went on during 4e. It was perfectly fine for Planescape fans to ram their preferences down everyone's throats, but, we certainly can't touch anything else.

Ah well, just means I cannot use any planar based modules from WOTC. Did that throughout 2e and 3e, so, I guess 5e won't be any different.

Click to expand...

Except that within AD&D with the possible exception of Dragonlance (depending on your view of it) Planescape was never rammed down anyone's throat, because they all either started out with the Great Wheel back in 1e (well before Planescape was a twinkle in Cook's eye) or didn't really have a developed cosmology prior to being incorporated within the 2e metasettings of Planescape and Spelljammer.

When 4e adopted a different core cosmology it inserted itself on top of multiple decades of development of a previous, rich cosmology intertwined into the backstory and lore of those settings. Planescape didn't do that, and I find it respectful to the game's history that they're moving back to a more classic handling of the planes.

If you like the 4e cosmology, tell them to produce a 5e Nentir Vale campaign setting, and if they think it'll sell, I'm sure that they'll give it to you, and I'd be happy for you.

For the sake of inclusion, any Manual of the Planes I'd probably argue to be a toolbox, with several alternate cosmologies presented, the Great Wheel and World Axis among them. Planescape's Great Wheel is my favorite by far, but I've worked with multiple different cosmologies before (multiple projects exploring Paizo's Great Beyond for instance), and I wouldn't want to openly reject anyone's likes - but you have to admit that the massive bulk of D&D history is with the Great Wheel, and that should get top billing as the default. That said, I would save a lot of the crazy Planescape stuff, any reference to the 'cant and a deep exploration of Sigil for an actual 5e Planescape setting (and I would deliver pizza to WotC if they ever announced that, just saying. Multiple toppings if I got in on working on it too, just saying).