TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Me, too.
Soldiers of the Blood War
Jeff Carlsen
Adventurer
It was stated by Jon Schindehette at the GenCon art panels that the monster bible they are assembling is specifically intended for the Forgotten Realms, with the hope that future settings would get the same treatment. Thus, to some extent, the monsters are going to follow that cosmology.
Ultimatecalibur
Explorer
Planescape (and the Great Wheel) is one of the most controversial aspects of D&D's history. Some players love it and its associated conceits (such as the Blood War, Sigil, the Rule of Three, the Lady of Pain, Dead Gods, and the Cant) while others despise it for other apparent(correct or not) conceits (ideas such as "the material plane doesn't matter/the outer planes and Sigil are the only things that matter" and "The D&D cosmology is the Great Wheel and every setting must use it"). I do not know how you can include enough aspects of Planescape in 5e to make its fans happy without upsetting those who don't want it without giving Planescape its own product line.
Hussar
Legend
Meh, it's true. I'll do the same thing for 5e that I did for 2e and 3e - completely ignore all references to the "Great Wheel" and not buy any product that has anything to do with planar elements. Worked for years before, and it will still work. PITA, but, not a huge deal.
What bugs me though is why Planescape fans seem to think that this is okay. I mean, if I told you that all orcs (for example) will now be Greyhawk orcs, worship Gruumsh and follow the canon of orcs in Greyhawk, and all official WOTC settings will either be retconned or forced into that same canon, I'd get pilloried. It would never fly. After all, not all settings even have orcs, and several settings make signficant changes to the orcs.
But, for some reason, it's perfectly acceptable to do this with planar beings. Shem, even you admit that TSR forced every setting into Planescape. There were several settings that were not part of the Great Wheel but were shoehorned in later. Ravenloft was never part of the Great Wheel. Dragonlance. Eberron I'm sure there are several others.
Like was said, I got zero problems with a big, juicy Planescape line of products that stand alone. That's a great idea. But, please, keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter. If I wanted chocolate, I'd ask for it.
Repeating the mistakes of the past is not necessarily a good thing. Planescape's pervasiveness was a mistake. IMO of course.
So, to turn it around, you have zero problems with Dragonborn or Warforged in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk? Should be perfectly acceptable after all.
What bugs me though is why Planescape fans seem to think that this is okay. I mean, if I told you that all orcs (for example) will now be Greyhawk orcs, worship Gruumsh and follow the canon of orcs in Greyhawk, and all official WOTC settings will either be retconned or forced into that same canon, I'd get pilloried. It would never fly. After all, not all settings even have orcs, and several settings make signficant changes to the orcs.
But, for some reason, it's perfectly acceptable to do this with planar beings. Shem, even you admit that TSR forced every setting into Planescape. There were several settings that were not part of the Great Wheel but were shoehorned in later. Ravenloft was never part of the Great Wheel. Dragonlance. Eberron I'm sure there are several others.
Like was said, I got zero problems with a big, juicy Planescape line of products that stand alone. That's a great idea. But, please, keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter. If I wanted chocolate, I'd ask for it.
Repeating the mistakes of the past is not necessarily a good thing. Planescape's pervasiveness was a mistake. IMO of course.
So, to turn it around, you have zero problems with Dragonborn or Warforged in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk? Should be perfectly acceptable after all.
Stormonu
Legend
Heh, that's a little harsh, but I agree with you on a level. (BTW, I hated Planescape when it first came out, but I've since warmed up to it).
The outer planes got a little too developed in core by the time Planescape rolled around. I wouldn't mind seeing that setting being put back out, but I do wish they'd leave the outer planes in Core open enough you can make it what you want - whether following Dragonlance's vision, Birthrights, Greyhawk's, Forgotten Realms, Mystara's or your own.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
Personally, I like a lot of Planescape, but I'm not a fan of the Great Wheel stuff (mostly because I'm not a fan of the tic-tac-toe alignments, either.) I'd be perfectly happy to see it all in a "planar" or even "Planescape" supplement. I would prefer the central rules to be as generic as possible (within the region of D&D style fantasy, anyway.) I certainly don't consider things like the Blood War or Sigil as "core" material, even in the relevant monster manual entries. Even though I like Planescape, I don't always run games in that universe. I have a deep aversion to "undoing" fluff and background ("re-skinning" drives me bonkers.)
Ratskinner
Adventurer
enh? This seems to be a characteristic of any proponent of any even remotely controversial bit of D&D fluff, and is certainly not a peculiarity of Planescape fans. I totally agree. I want the core books to be a plain-Jane as possible. I do think that WotC has a problem when it comes to the "fluff" part of monster content. Namely, people seem to want a whole lot of it. That puts them on the spot for writing up Devils or really any type of creature with controversial "fluff". Personally, I think that the monster entries in the generic/core MM should be very sparse on fluff/history/background/flavor (not devoid of it, just sparse) and leave the big fluff for the settings books. Unfortunately, people seem to really want that fluff...so....yet another reason I'm glad I'm not working on this.</snippage>
Yuck! If I ever hated a setting it would be the Forgotten Realms. Yet another nail in the coffin for poor, doomed 5e for me.
5e appears to become the first edition I won't buy. Will that make me a grognard, I wonder?
Starfox
Hero
I like the 4E take on the planes - in theory. I like the great distinction between demons and devils. And Succubi are definitely devils to me.
In practice, I find I need both demons as elemental engines of destruction and demons as outsides filling an arc of the greet wheel. I actually use both. Sooo hard to be a purist. And rarely productive either.
In practice, I find I need both demons as elemental engines of destruction and demons as outsides filling an arc of the greet wheel. I actually use both. Sooo hard to be a purist. And rarely productive either.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
There are mountains of information about devils and demons all through D&D history and I applaud anyone who can make coherent sense of it all. To the authors credit, I think the article does touch on a large number of iconic ideas.
One of the minor points for me is I might not include The Blood War in my games, so it would be nice to know it could be taken out without a major rewrite for every fiend. And while I really like it, I imagine not everyone's campaign settings will include a barrier to demons and devils entering the Prime Material plane either or perhaps even a PM plane at all.
A few specific points:[sblock]1. Telepathy with Tongues is a major power and it might make sense to turn this into a kind of Universal Tongue that has different alignment shades, but is understood by every Outer Planar. As understanding this language in whole is to understand any other language, it might be mitigated by creature Intelligence, INT rolls, and, optionally, alignment again. Perhaps at high levels it turns into Life Speech or Death Speech or whatever.
2 Followers aren't just for PCs. Even demons and devils can, and usually do, have coteries of followers. Even demons ruled by strength commonly have a lord and pawns they think obey them. These are who are summoned or gated in. Summoning being a form of Astral Travel that doesn't include the material form (at least from the PM to other planes. It may work differently onto the PM). Summoning is more limited than Gating due to its re-usability. Gating is bringing your troops into a markedly hostile environment and all deaths are permanent. Still, this leads into epidemic issue in #5 below.
3. Demons are as interbred a bunch as it comes and creating a strain or two as one's followers just makes sense, if you want to breed in loyalty to your pawns. I think this is likely why many Demon Princes have trait carrying followers, but there are certainly other options too. (It just has to do with the mass scale).
4. Wouldn't it be cool to outline a small portion of a single devil's playing of the game of demons? How it connects to so many others, the long game and short game of misdirection and nuances, ever scheming, ever second guessing, never trusting. Even a picture this web of relations perpetrated by lies would be interesting as a DM example.
5. Devil Summoning may be due to allies in like bands being those one would call in for aid. This makes Devils more dangerous due to the relative strength of their aid, but the ultimately the power of the summoning spell needed is what balances this ability. However, it might be interesting to have devils being able to Gate like allies, but that quickly becomes an epidemic of plane ending proportions. Add in the Upper Planar reactions and most any contested plane becomes a battlefield eventually won or loss one way or another. But if the Deities have a pact halting Gating into the Prime Material, then interference is by Calling from PM inhabitants only - as you already mentioned as the status quo.
6. I like LightWarden's point in the article's Comments section. It would be nice if these two forces were less uniform in identity.[/sblock]Suites, allowing for large numbers of abilities[sblock]Idea: Design creatures with several Special Abilities and Spell-Like abilities, but don't allow them to use every single one every day. Allow each, say, 12 with 7 usable for a day. Or 7 and 4 in a day and so on. We don't even need to limit it to a day. Longer times work too.
Spell-Like abilities already function like spells and can be changed to this system easily. Special Abilities are typically permanent and at-will, so they would always be available. What I suggest is moving more powers from the latter to the former.
1. This makes manageable the number of abilities a DM needs to account for in any single combat or encounter.
2. It allows powerful monsters to be very powerful in the strategic scale game over days, months, and even years as antagonists - not to mention the opportunity for growth over time.
3. It enables creatures to customize their abilities to the challenges they face. For example, powerful demons may select abilities to specifically counter and overcome those of the unique PC party it faces.
4. It operates like the magic system already in the game. At least in that many options are available, but not all Spells are Spells Prepared during any given conflict.
Demons & Devils are high level foes for the most part and the majority have a lot of abilities and resources to call upon. Think of them like high level PCs. They are very capable in a lot of ways. They have acquired many treasures, have many allies (well, henchmen), have learned many strategies, have developed many powerful abilities, and generally may choose from a long list of options with which to challenge the players with. They tailor themselves to the challenge shoring up their weaknesses and playing to their strengths. This improves not only replay value, but a depth of strategic design for these figures to be major antagonists and players in a variety of fields, not simply solely in combat, magic / technology, or on cultural playing fields like politics and religion.
I'd really prefer if high level foes could be more difficult and complex again, but I do understand the need for quick, easy play too. I think the above is one means for a fair compromise.[/sblock]
One of the minor points for me is I might not include The Blood War in my games, so it would be nice to know it could be taken out without a major rewrite for every fiend. And while I really like it, I imagine not everyone's campaign settings will include a barrier to demons and devils entering the Prime Material plane either or perhaps even a PM plane at all.
A few specific points:[sblock]1. Telepathy with Tongues is a major power and it might make sense to turn this into a kind of Universal Tongue that has different alignment shades, but is understood by every Outer Planar. As understanding this language in whole is to understand any other language, it might be mitigated by creature Intelligence, INT rolls, and, optionally, alignment again. Perhaps at high levels it turns into Life Speech or Death Speech or whatever.
2 Followers aren't just for PCs. Even demons and devils can, and usually do, have coteries of followers. Even demons ruled by strength commonly have a lord and pawns they think obey them. These are who are summoned or gated in. Summoning being a form of Astral Travel that doesn't include the material form (at least from the PM to other planes. It may work differently onto the PM). Summoning is more limited than Gating due to its re-usability. Gating is bringing your troops into a markedly hostile environment and all deaths are permanent. Still, this leads into epidemic issue in #5 below.
3. Demons are as interbred a bunch as it comes and creating a strain or two as one's followers just makes sense, if you want to breed in loyalty to your pawns. I think this is likely why many Demon Princes have trait carrying followers, but there are certainly other options too. (It just has to do with the mass scale).
4. Wouldn't it be cool to outline a small portion of a single devil's playing of the game of demons? How it connects to so many others, the long game and short game of misdirection and nuances, ever scheming, ever second guessing, never trusting. Even a picture this web of relations perpetrated by lies would be interesting as a DM example.
5. Devil Summoning may be due to allies in like bands being those one would call in for aid. This makes Devils more dangerous due to the relative strength of their aid, but the ultimately the power of the summoning spell needed is what balances this ability. However, it might be interesting to have devils being able to Gate like allies, but that quickly becomes an epidemic of plane ending proportions. Add in the Upper Planar reactions and most any contested plane becomes a battlefield eventually won or loss one way or another. But if the Deities have a pact halting Gating into the Prime Material, then interference is by Calling from PM inhabitants only - as you already mentioned as the status quo.
6. I like LightWarden's point in the article's Comments section. It would be nice if these two forces were less uniform in identity.[/sblock]Suites, allowing for large numbers of abilities[sblock]Idea: Design creatures with several Special Abilities and Spell-Like abilities, but don't allow them to use every single one every day. Allow each, say, 12 with 7 usable for a day. Or 7 and 4 in a day and so on. We don't even need to limit it to a day. Longer times work too.
Spell-Like abilities already function like spells and can be changed to this system easily. Special Abilities are typically permanent and at-will, so they would always be available. What I suggest is moving more powers from the latter to the former.
1. This makes manageable the number of abilities a DM needs to account for in any single combat or encounter.
2. It allows powerful monsters to be very powerful in the strategic scale game over days, months, and even years as antagonists - not to mention the opportunity for growth over time.
3. It enables creatures to customize their abilities to the challenges they face. For example, powerful demons may select abilities to specifically counter and overcome those of the unique PC party it faces.
4. It operates like the magic system already in the game. At least in that many options are available, but not all Spells are Spells Prepared during any given conflict.
Demons & Devils are high level foes for the most part and the majority have a lot of abilities and resources to call upon. Think of them like high level PCs. They are very capable in a lot of ways. They have acquired many treasures, have many allies (well, henchmen), have learned many strategies, have developed many powerful abilities, and generally may choose from a long list of options with which to challenge the players with. They tailor themselves to the challenge shoring up their weaknesses and playing to their strengths. This improves not only replay value, but a depth of strategic design for these figures to be major antagonists and players in a variety of fields, not simply solely in combat, magic / technology, or on cultural playing fields like politics and religion.
I'd really prefer if high level foes could be more difficult and complex again, but I do understand the need for quick, easy play too. I think the above is one means for a fair compromise.[/sblock]
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