Alt.Sorceror ?

Azure Trance · Dec 13, 2002

Does anyone have one, other then Montes? I recall reading somewhere on the boards one members opinion that the sorceror should have been the opposite of what he is now.

Instead of:

Cast Spontaneously
Limited Knowledge of Spells
Learn Spells at lower pace
Cast More Spells A Day

It should have been:

Cast Spontaneously
Unlimited Knowledge of Spells
Learn Spells at lower pace
Cast More Spells per day

Is there a way to balance the class with the above criteria?

Azure Trance · Dec 13, 2002

Ok, so Sorc have to wait longer to get to another spell level. In the PHB they have to wait to an even level while the Wizards who go before them get one every odd level.

I know people will cry this is broken in some way, but that's why you know more then I do

Sorc get 6 cantrips/3 1st levels and Wizards get 3 cantrips/1 1st level in the PHB. I'm tempted to just say, Sorc know unlimited spells but reduce the spells amount they can cast to 4 cantrips/2 1st level (and modify the spell casting chart downward). After all, Wizards get to the higher spell levels first, they get 5 extra metamagic feats while Sorc get none, and they can cast metamagiced spells without having to wait a round as Sorc do. Just looking at that it seems somewhat balanced to me.

But, please correct me in the unforseen consequences this might have.

SylverFlame · Dec 13, 2002

The only problem I see with what you have is the fact that why would someone play a wizard then? Metamagic feats? Faster progression? No real point in those, unless you're slinging spells left right and centre with the meta-feats.

The problem crops up in the spell lists. Druids and clerics are seperate, so why not sorcerer and wizard? Divide the lists and try and balance them along the same lines as the cleric list is balanced to the druid. Then when you start playing around with the classes you'll still have a reason to play a wizard even if the sorcerer can cast more spells.

Oni · Dec 13, 2002

Here I my attempt. No hard limit on the number of spells that can be learned, but is slow to learn them. Can cast a great number of spells per day especially at higher level, but really only lower level spells. I haven't done much with it, I still feel it is kind of clunky and needs playtesting.

http://personal.rmc.edu/~jcpugh/Channeller.html

Destil · Dec 13, 2002

Uhm, if you cast spontaniously, have unlimited spells known and have more spells / day... why would anyone play a wizard?

Personaly, what I've always wanted to do is make the sorcerer the class that would utilize lots of usefull but limited 'niche' spells, like phanton steed and waterbreathing... To me, a caster who knows a lot of spells and casts few per day strikes me as more spontanious, since they would have a nice selection of spells usefull for various applications.. I'd switch the spells known / per day table and apply the Cha bonus to spells / know, as a rough starting point. Most likely you'd want to add some bonus metamagic feats, as well, and a few more skill points & skills, just so they can do something after using their small number of spells...

Aldymnor · Dec 13, 2002

Well the above criteria, alone, is unbalanced. I mean, one is clearly better than the other (the difference is now sorcs can know unlimited spells)

Well technically, with some splat books / ELH, a sorcerer can know an unlimited amount, through feats.

I suspect you mean other than that..

Yes, but in the way Spellfire is balanced. Spellfire is supposed to be administered carefully (VERY carefully) by the DM, and thus you could create "Arcane Blood" as a feat and have it be the only gate into the Sorcerer class, then apply those changes. They're grossly unbalanced, but if the DM keeps the feat in context, it shouldn't be that bad.

Other ways... hrm...

well you could say the sorcerer has to have a charisma of 10 + twice the spell level to cast that spell... Sure it's easier early on, but once you hit level 7 spells, you're gonna be sorry. And with a required charisma of 28 to cast ANY level 9 spells - you're pretty hindered. I don't know how balanced that'd be, cause the first example i gave was at least based on some existing material.

DreamChaser · Dec 13, 2002

Azure, are you a player or a DM? The modifications you are suggesting just scream player who wants more power for his character.

But, since you asked...

--> reduce the number of spells the sorcerer can cast for each level by 1.
--> each spell known is a spell bond slot. the sorcerer bonds to a spell and has it for as long as he keeps it bonded. he unbonds by casting the spell while out of spell slots of the appropriate level.
--> to bond with a spell, a sorcerer must absorb it from a scroll, wand, or from being subject to it (and knowing it). He must succeed in a Charisma check (DC 10 + spell level) to bond with a spell.
--> unbonding creates a magical feedback within the sorcerer that deals 1d4 points of subdual damage per level of the spell (1 point for cantrips).

Unlimited spells (although only a select amount at a time). No other changes. I still think it would be broken but *shrug* its the best I can do on short notice.

Azure Trance · Dec 13, 2002

DreamChaser said:
Azure, are you a player or a DM? The modifications you are suggesting just scream player who wants more power for his character.

But, since you asked...

--> reduce the number of spells the sorcerer can cast for each level by 1.
--> each spell known is a spell bond slot. the sorcerer bonds to a spell and has it for as long as he keeps it bonded. he unbonds by casting the spell while out of spell slots of the appropriate level.
--> to bond with a spell, a sorcerer must absorb it from a scroll, wand, or from being subject to it (and knowing it). He must succeed in a Charisma check (DC 10 + spell level) to bond with a spell.
--> unbonding creates a magical feedback within the sorcerer that deals 1d4 points of subdual damage per level of the spell (1 point for cantrips).

Unlimited spells (although only a select amount at a time). No other changes. I still think it would be broken but *shrug* its the best I can do on short notice.

PC and DM, but I ask in a DM fashion. I don't want a munchy class but just something which is opposite of what the Sorc is now ... and still balanced. (if possible, which I'm not sure if it is at this point)

DreamChaser · Dec 13, 2002

Azure Trance said:
PC and DM, but I ask in a DM fashion. I don't want a munchy class but just something which is opposite of what the Sorc is now ... and still balanced. (if possible, which I'm not sure if it is at this point)

but the wizard is the opposite of the sorcerer.

Limited spells vs limitless spells
On the fly casting vs prepared casting
large number of spells per day vs small number of spells per day

I think they were designed to be opposite approaches to the same thing.

Enchanter · Dec 15, 2002

If you're wanting to make the Sorc have a limitless number of spells, how about changing the way they acquire them? The sorcerer learns spells by accident and observation, rather than the wizard's spell books.

So you could rule that a sorcerer must learn his spells from watching others. He needs to make a certain level of spellcraft check to learn a spell, or even make multiple spellcraft checks (to observe and learn different portions of the casting). This would contrast with the wizard's spells that are gained automatically, representing the research that he is doing.

This will leave the spell knowledge of the sorcerer up to the DM, but may provide more of the flavor you are looking for.

Alt.Sorceror ?

Azure Trance

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Azure Trance

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SylverFlame

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Oni

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Destil

Explorer

Aldymnor

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DreamChaser

Explorer

Azure Trance

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DreamChaser

Explorer

Enchanter

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