Old-school dungeon crawl using 5e playtest rules

tuxgeo

Adventurer
Not relevant to the current discussion of Readied Actions, but I wanted to post this anyway:

In the IC thread, I messed up the formula for my PC's hammer attack, using d8 instead of d4 for damage. I realized that I didn't have it listed in the character sheet I put up online; and I realized that was because I hadn't figured it out yet. So here's this about Aeiyan Athelmar:

* ATTACKS (LEVEL 1) *
-> Longbow:
1d20+4;1d8+3
-> Scimitar:
1d20+4;1d6+3
-> Dagger:
1d20+4;1d4+3
-> Light hammer, THROWN:
1d20+4;1d4+3
-> Light hammer, MELEE:
1d20+3;1d4+2

Overall, he gets +3 for DEX but +2 for STR; and the +1 Proficiency bonus only applies to the attack roll, not the damage roll.
 

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Li Shenron

Legend
By my reading of (a), we need to read (b) as "if the trigger never occurs [later in the round]".

I find this interesting, because each of us has read this and thought it was natural, but have come to different conclusions.

Our confusion may be because of different ways to see what a "round" is.

Not sure, but I think you are thinking of ROUND = starts with the turn of the highest-init creature, ends after the turn of the lowest-init creature.

The others are thinking of ROUND = one interval between any 2 consecutive turns of the same creature (provided it doesn't change init) OR starts at any init number, ends at the same init number next time. Sort of a "moving window".

The problem is, the designers themselves get confused all the time, some of them think in the 1st way, others in the 2nd.

The text under Combat -> The combat sequence -> The round, seems to support your view, but the Ready an Action mechanic is IMHO clearly meant to work for cyclic initiative. It makes little sense that the lowest-init character cannot ready any action, which would be the result of the 1st interpreretation.

With the 2nd interpretation (which I'm using) you don't really get 2 action per rounds. More precisely, you do get 2 actions in "round 5" if you seen rounds your way, but you still get as many attacks as everyone else during the battle, which is what matters, because you delayed the first attack.

In some cases, readying has an edge. Ours was such case, because they just happened to be lucky that the first foe entering the inner cave was immediately before them in initiative term (but clearly, it could have been Aeiyan and they would not have any benefit). However, the price they paid was that they actually wasted a lot of turns, when they were waiting for the trigger, while they could have attacked.

It also means you are focused and can't do opportunity attacks, etc., when an action is readied. So in those two ways it seems a good rule (over previous editions).

This is actually not explicitly mentioned in the current packet.

It would make sense that while readying you cannot take other reactions.

However, it would also make sense that you could, but in that case obviously you lose the readied action because you're taking another reaction and you can only take one per turn.

I thought the whole idea of the Reaction was to enable an extra triggered action per round.

Using the ready action creates another use for your reaction just like any other.

Both of view propose an original view, which IIRC leads to the same conclusions as mine, but it's a bit gamist and thus more complicated :)

I just see "Readying" as a mechanic very much grounded in narrative: it represents someone waiting/delaying a little bit.

Note that currently the rules are restrictive about what actions you can delay: "attack, grapple, hustle, knock down, or use an item". It sounds like a specific list, and doesn't include spells (although some spells can be cast as reactions, therefore IMO here the rules should be more explicit).

Anyway, the Ready an Action rule clearly doesn't want to allow you anything more than you could normally do in the course of one "moving window" round, i.e. 1 action + 1 move + 1 reaction. Actually, it lets you do less, because technically the Readying itself costs your action and your attack costs your reaction (you can still move before Readying), while if you attack normally at your init, you still have your reaction for later.
 

wedgeski

Adventurer
Anyway, the Ready an Action rule clearly doesn't want to allow you anything more than you could normally do in the course of one "moving window" round, i.e. 1 action + 1 move + 1 reaction. Actually, it lets you do less, because technically the Readying itself costs your action and your attack costs your reaction (you can still move before Readying), while if you attack normally at your init, you still have your reaction for later.
This is exactly my reading of the Ready an Action rules. Readying comes with a price, and often during table D&D, Readying can cause you to "lose" an action altogether (i.e. the triggering effect never occurs), causing your next turn in the initiative order to arrive with you have done nothing for a round except stand there like a lemon waiting for something that didn't happen! I note it also doesn't affect your Initiative order.

This is all fine, IMO. Readying can be deadly (especially with multiple foes acting in concert to achieve flanking etc.), and should come with an opportunity cost.

There is no interpretation of Ready that causes you to gain a triggered action as well as your normal actions, as far as I can see.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Hey everyone! This is a good discussion!

Our confusion may be because of different ways to see what a "round" is.

Not sure, but I think you are thinking of ROUND = starts with the turn of the highest-init creature, ends after the turn of the lowest-init creature.

That's the definition I see on p. 9 and 15. yes.

The others are thinking of ROUND = one interval between any 2 consecutive turns of the same creature (provided it doesn't change init) OR starts at any init number, ends at the same init number next time. Sort of a "moving window".

The problem is, the designers themselves get confused all the time, some of them think in the 1st way, others in the 2nd.

Can you give an example of the confusion?

The text under Combat -> The combat sequence -> The round, seems to support your view, but the Ready an Action mechanic is IMHO clearly meant to work for cyclic initiative. It makes little sense that the lowest-init character cannot ready any action, which would be the result of the 1st interpretation.

That is a consequence of my reading, yes.

With the 2nd interpretation (which I'm using) you don't really get 2 action per rounds. More precisely, you do get 2 actions in "round 5" if you seen rounds your way, but you still get as many attacks as everyone else during the battle, which is what matters, because you delayed the first attack.

In some cases, readying has an edge. Ours was such case, because they just happened to be lucky that the first foe entering the inner cave was immediately before them in initiative term (but clearly, it could have been Aeiyan and they would not have any benefit). However, the price they paid was that they actually wasted a lot of turns, when they were waiting for the trigger, while they could have attacked.

I see how it was beneficial this round, no doubt. But I'm not really talking about this combat (which is why I moved it to this thread!).

This is actually not explicitly mentioned in the current packet.

My inferences, spelled out.

It would make sense that while readying you cannot take other reactions.

However, it would also make sense that you could, but in that case obviously you lose the readied action because you're taking another reaction and you can only take one per turn.

Yes, here we're on the same page. If you use your reaction for something else, then it isn't available for the trigger emerging from your choice to ready an action.

This is an interesting discussion. No one's suggesting anything unreasonable. Thanks!
 

ccooke

Adventurer
By my reading of (a), we need to read (b) as "if the trigger never occurs [later in the round]".

I find this interesting, because each of us has read this and thought it was natural, but have come to different conclusions.

I can see your reading, but (obviously! :) ) I don't agree with it.

For me, the issue comes in three parts - Clarity, Gamist and Narrative, if you will.

On the side of clarity, if the rules mean you can't take other reactions they should say so. As currently written, they do not.

On the side of gamism, the Reaction mechanic is compositional; many possible triggers from many different sources, but only one action you can take. The cost of readying an action is clear: You forego your action on your own turn to create a new trigger for a reaction that *may not* come up. Whether it comes up or not, you have given up your action on your turn. If you choose to use a different reaction, your action to ready an action was wasted.

Unfortunately the rules as written are unclear enough to support both our viewpoints and probably several more :)

The reason I end up thinking the way I do is the narrative, though:

Let's say you're a melee/spellcaster who has the Shield spell prepared today. You're setting up an ambush by a door and ready an action: "When someone comes through the door, I'll attack them". During the next turn, an archer pops out of a window above you, spots you and shoots off an arrow. Are you able to take your Reaction to cast the Shield spell or not?
If you are able to take the reaction, then you do so. The arrow misses, but you are unable to use your readied action to attack when someone comes through the door.
If you are not able... then you are so focussed on your readied action that you are unable to defend yourself. Surely, then, attacks against you should have advantage? That seems an unreasonable level of focus to me.
Note that there are many other common talents that use a reaction: the Defender fighting style allows you to use your reaction to impose disadvantage on an attack, for instance. Would an intelligent, tactical fighter be so focussed on a readied action that they are unable to use their shield the way they have been trained to?

To me, it only makes sense if you can use any reaction that has a valid trigger.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Can you give an example of the confusion?

Yes I actually already had it in mind while writing my previous post...

"How to play", Page 16, paragraph "Your Turn", first lines of the second column (emphasis mine):

You can take only one reaction per round.
When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn.


Here we have two consecutive sentences that seem to refer each to one of the opposing views :D

Let's say your Init is 10.

Going by the first alone, if you take a reaction when Init count is 15, you can't take another when Init is 5; but if you take the first reaction this round at 5, you can take another next round at 15, for a total of 2 between your turns. This also creates the odd result that an intermediate Init score is better than both a very high and a very low Init score.

Going by the second alone (what I'm using right now) guarantees max 1 reaction between your turns, always. Higher Init score is always better at the beginning of the combat, but then everything becomes cyclic (i.e. there is no special narrative meaning of the start or end or a round) and it's not advantageous in absolute terms anymore.

Going by both at the same time (but using your meaning of "round") is actually not that different from going by the first alone IMO, just more complicatedly worded and yielding some occasional weird corner case (e.g. if you are second-last in Init score and you have already taken a reaction in "round N", you can't take a reaction if provoked by the last character but you can take a reaction if provoked by the next character because it's already "next turn".

Because of these considerations, I think their intent is round as "moving window", like it was in 3e.

For me, the issue comes in three parts - Clarity, Gamist and Narrative, if you will.

On the side of clarity, if the rules mean you can't take other reactions they should say so. As currently written, they do not.

...

The reason I end up thinking the way I do is the narrative, though:

To reiterate what I wrote before, I think the main reason for having rules for Readying an Action in the game is narrative, which is why I come to the same conclusions as you.

As for the issue of (a) allowing to lose the readied action to take a different reaction VS (b) not allowing to take any other reaction while waiting for the trigger, I would probably prefer (a) over (b), but in either case I definitely wish the designers make a decision and spell it clearly.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
In the IC thread, I messed up the formula for my PC's hammer attack, using d8 instead of d4 for damage. I realized that I didn't have it listed in the character sheet I put up online; and I realized that was because I hadn't figured it out yet. So here's this about Aeiyan Athelmar:

* ATTACKS (LEVEL 1) *
-> Longbow:
1d20+4;1d8+3
-> Scimitar:
1d20+4;1d6+3
-> Dagger:
1d20+4;1d4+3
-> Light hammer, THROWN:
1d20+4;1d4+3
-> Light hammer, MELEE:
1d20+3;1d4+2

Overall, he gets +3 for DEX but +2 for STR; and the +1 Proficiency bonus only applies to the attack roll, not the damage roll.

Good, good!

Note that all your PCs stats and descriptions were copied to this page:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/group.php?groupid=386

I am using that page as a reference since it's so much easier with all the PC on the same page.

So if any of you notices that their PC need some update, we should put the updates into that page...

I suggest that each of you, whenever you have time, goes to that page, copies the whole character and paste it into your own reply to the discussion, so that from now on each player can directly edit her PC's information.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Interesting. We all know how we read the rule now. I'm fine continuing as is.

Going by both at the same time (but using your meaning of "round") is actually not that different from going by the first alone IMO, just more complicatedly worded and yielding some occasional weird corner case (e.g. if you are second-last in Init score and you have already taken a reaction in "round N", you can't take a reaction if provoked by the last character but you can take a reaction if provoked by the next character because it's already "next turn".
This is a good summary -- I am using both rules in my interpretation, and accepting the consequence that being higher on the init run has an advantage for avoiding readied actions. I'm not saying I like the rule (though I think I do), but it is what I see as intended. In any case, it's not a weird corner case -- it's going to be a regular event, and either the rules intend it or not.

Thanks.
 

Shayuri

First Post
Hee hee...

I really need to put the playtest files on a thumbdrive and bring them here with me, it seems, cuz this is where I do my posting from. I hate to waste time on questions, but given that Sul is in a very bad place for a wizard, I do feel I need to be acquainted with this particular tactical subsystem.

So...I am still fuzzy on opportunity attacks.

What I'd like for Su to do is get to safety, and possibly attack, in that order.

Now in 3e, there was a manuever called Withdraw that allowed you to safely exit a threatened space without incurring an AoO. In 4e there was a Shift. Does 5e have anything like that?

Also, spellcasting no longer incurs an AoO, but does ranged weapon fire? My only combat spell left is Ray of Frost, which is a ranged attack roll as well as a spell.

Thanks for your patience, y'all. I'm really hoping to spare Su a drubbing from Hobgoblin Chief mace for at least one more round. :)
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I hope the others will correct me if I'm wrong!

What I'd like for Su to do is get to safety, and possibly attack, in that order.

I don't think this is possible in one turn without some special ability, see below why.

Now in 3e, there was a manuever called Withdraw that allowed you to safely exit a threatened space without incurring an AoO. In 4e there was a Shift. Does 5e have anything like that?

There is an action called Disengage (move up to half your speed), but it is an action and you only get one per round, so it will replace your attack action or your spellcasting action, it won't replace your move action.

However, check if you have some swift spells: these don't take the usual action, but can be cast together as another action (in which case, the Disengage action).

Also, spellcasting no longer incurs an AoO, but does ranged weapon fire? My only combat spell left is Ray of Frost, which is a ranged attack roll as well as a spell.

No AoO for spellcasting itself or for shooting ranged weapons in melee anymore!

Indeed your situation is tricky, because to withdraw you can move to 1.5 your speed (Disengage at half speed + move at full speed), but the opponents will be able to reach you and attack (move at full speed + Charge at full speed). But this is the kind of things it's good to playtest, to get an opinion on how 5e works! :cool:
 

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