Old-school dungeon crawl using 5e playtest rules

[Kobold Stew]

re: what's just happened in the IC thread:

This feels like dirty pool.

No initiative, no rolls, crit damage, from an opponent who has been defeated.

This only makes sense to me as a punishment for trying to keep the conversation rolling, or as a punishment for the character for actually speaking the language -- that it would have been better if he could not communicate. PBP is so slow, with everyone in different time zones. You're the ref, but the signal this sends is that you don't want us to answer one another in comments. That you don't want us to parley with characters you present or to talk with each other. Lesson learned, I guess.

 

[Shayuri]

I don't know that I agree that it feels like retaliation...but it would have been nice to have gotten a chance to react or see it coming.

 

[Li Shenron]

re: what's just happened in the IC thread:

This feels like dirty pool.

No initiative, no rolls, crit damage, from an opponent who has been defeated.

This only makes sense to me as a punishment for trying to keep the conversation rolling, or as a punishment for the character for actually speaking the language -- that it would have been better if he could not communicate. PBP is so slow, with everyone in different time zones. You're the ref, but the signal this sends is that you don't want us to answer one another in comments. That you don't want us to parley with characters you present or to talk with each other. Lesson learned, I guess.

Sorry if it felt like that! I had some draft "tree of events" written down to cover different possible outcomes of the battles, depending on both your decisions and battle randomness (especially who would be the last hobgoblin standing, there were some of them who would have reacted quite differently to different approaches). This last hobgoblin was the most complicated because it was the most tragic (something along the line "mother of a chieftain partly responsible for the inevitable extinction of their tribe"). Basically desperate, she would have let you kill her easily in that short window of time OR she could have been persuaded to cooperate if sympathized with BUT she would have attacked suicidally if mistreated. Not sure if this makes enough sense, but it was the canvas I planned to follow.

It was your description of Bartleby's actions that caught me off guard: he slammed her, then he turned away to give the potion, then turned back to continue interrogation. This quite vividly reminded me of something seen many times in movies... turning away, and as turning back meeting with sudden reaction. I just thought to go narratively here instead of following a detailed procedure (it would have been different if we were still in the initiative sequence) also because, in a sense, had I followed strict rules here then perhaps I should have done the same when you slammed her, e.g. given her also a chance to see it coming and act first. But be sure, I wouldn't have gone rules-free if I didn't know already that her attack's maximum effect would have never killed you. The "price to pay" for choosing the physical threatening route was supposed to be merely losing her as a source of information.

But that said... I'm not sure I like it myself, how I have handled this case! So if you want a more by-the-rules approach, just let me know and I will always do that in the future!!

 

[tuxgeo]

Re: guidance for the DM -- I've been hesitating a good part of an hour before posting. Partly that's because Li Shenron seemed to be asking Kobold Stew individually -- and it's not my place to speak for KS.

Here's my position: this is only my second PbP game ever. If fact, aside from playing around with D&D 3E and 4E at home alone, this is only my fifth D&D game ever. (I participated in a Game Day; played one LFR organized session; and took part in an Encounters activity for 5 weeks in 2013.)

The result of my lack of experience is that I don't know what the DM is supposed to be doing. (I'm still trying to read through the 4E DMG2; it's slow going for me.)

So, given that I don't feel comfortable saying how the DM should act, why am I posting this? Answer: merely to say that I had blithely assumed that the first encounter would be filled with generic mooks; for them to turn out to have individual personalities was an intriguing surprise. I think I like it, but I'm not sure. More data are needed.

 

[Kobold Stew]

No need to change -- and no worries.

We're all exploring here. I hadn't thought of my interrogating her as an attack, because I thought she had been registered as "defeated" -- i.e. we were out of combat, XP totalled, and you were giving us the opportunity to engage socially and move on.

Thanks for taking my concern in the spirit it was intended. As I say, lesson learned.

EDIT: simulpost with Tuxgeo!

I agree that I was looking forward to the interaction with the character; Bartleby has manacles, and it was my hope that the NPC would live.

I hope we're all good.

 

[Li Shenron]

I will try to handle this transition between combat and interaction better next time!

One note about XP given... basically this is just the total from the Bestiary entries, divided by 5 PC.

By the book, this encounter qualified as "tough" for 1st level PCs, or possibly even more since you were outnumbered 2-to-1 (according to the rules, when outnumbered, the DM should consider the encounter one step harder, but there is no step beyond "tough"), although this is a little debatable because you managed to catch the first couple of enemies on their own, before they all regrouped.

That said... 50XP is quite few! I was aware that a lot of playtesters reported that monsters are weak at this stage, which is why I went with a "tough" encounter without fear. But then I checked the XP, and this does not feel in line with the "1st level should be over in one gaming session" idea, because I have some serious doubts that in a tabletop game we could go through 5 such encounters. But maybe I'm wrong, and we really could... it's not easy to compare the time it takes on PbP with the time it would take in a live game.

I had blithely assumed that the first encounter would be filled with generic mooks; for them to turn out to have individual personalities was an intriguing surprise. I think I like it, but I'm not sure. More data are needed.

That is just something that I can't resist from doing Ideally, all the intelligent creatures in my fantasy setting would have a name and own identity.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Happy 40th anniversary of D&D, everybody!

 

[Li Shenron]

Happy 40th anniversary of D&D, everybody!

Thanks, you too!

---

So I've found something to discuss shortly.

For this hobgoblin encounter, I decided to roll treasure randomly to see how the guidelines work.

I checked those guidelines and I am not sure, but I thought I should apply "chest" treasure type of level 1, because the encounter is of the lair type and the average creatures level is ~1.2. However I also decided to add one "pouch" treasure type of level 3 (for the hobgoblin chief), and to roll that "chest" type twice because you were outnumbered 2-to-1. Basically I thought something along the line "if 4 hobgoblins in a lair have a chest, 8 hobgoblins have two chests, and an extra one has a pouch".

Do you think I should instead just apply "pouch" treasure type for each monster in the battle? That's a lot of rolls to make, but maybe this is the right way?

Should I also roll on one "chest" treasure, or is that supposed to replace the "pouch" type?

The "problem" is that rolling in that way above (two 1st-level chests + one 3rd level pouches) I got... nothing except one miserable healing potion!

 

[wedgeski]

Happy 40th anniversary of D&D, everybody!

I didn't get to celebrate. Stupid work so I can earn money to do stuff!

I should check this thread more often, sorry I missed the debate on the "combat to social" transitions.

I haven't got much to add except that we should all accept that PbP has a wealth of compromises built-in. I've run a couple and participated in many, and without exception, the need to keep the pace over-rides all other considerations. The alternative (and I've seen this) is a week of tedious back-and-forths where the DM asks the player what his character's defensive posture is, etc., and all drama is removed. I think we can trust that [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] won't kill any of us with such a device?

So, I quite liked that turn of events, but then it wasn't my guy gettin' punctured.

 

[wedgeski]

The "problem" is that rolling in that way above (two 1st-level chests + one 3rd level pouches) I got... nothing except one miserable healing potion!

I've reviewed the rules and can't fault your logic there, although the text does specifically say that if you think the treasure is inadequate, you should just throw in some magic chain mail and warhammer and give it all to the cleric. Either way a single healing potion does seem like a poor result for what I think could've been a very dangerous encounter (I would say the dice were with us).