Pronouns in D&D - How should gender be handled?

JamesonCourage · Nov 8, 2013

Shemeska said:
And I just noticed that as of the time I'm posting this, 41% or so want to use masculine pronouns as a generic. Seriously?

Seriously. I voted that way (though I'd be okay with options 2 or 3, and quite like Celebrim's way of handling things).

Shemeska said:
D&D isn't a boys only club, and while that generic usage isn't by itself overtly or intentionally sexist, it's not exactly an embrace of widening the D&D audience and player base.

Do you think I feel like D&D is a boy's club? Do you think I'm sexist, or that the women in my life feel like I am? I'm just trying to gauge what you're trying to say here, and I want to be absolutely clear before I continue.

Shemeska said:
removing casual assumptions of player gender is a step, albeit tiny, IMO towards growing the RPG market and catering to a less select and assumed audience than in the past.

If that's the case, then publisher's can do that if they want to. It's not like the poll is asking people if they'd boycott if option 1 wasn't chosen.

Random Bystander · Nov 8, 2013

JamesonCourage said:
Seriously. I voted that way (though I'd be okay with options 2 or 3, and quite like Celebrim's way of handling things).

Do you think I feel like D&D is a boy's club? Do you think I'm sexist, or that the women in my life feel like I am? I'm just trying to gauge what you're trying to say here, and I want to be absolutely clear before I continue.

If that's the case, then publisher's can do that if they want to. It's not like the poll is asking people if they'd boycott if option 1 wasn't chosen.

Ok, I have a challenge for you. The next time you read one of your rulebooks, replace every gender instance with "She".

If you're fine with that change, and can view it as gender-neutral, than carry on.

Olgar Shiverstone · Nov 8, 2013

Let's just refer to everyone as "it", shall we. Gender neutral -- there, I fixed it.

Random Bystander · Nov 8, 2013

Olgar Shiverstone said:
Let's just refer to everyone as "it", shall we. Gender neutral -- there, I fixed it.

Unfortunately, "It" is also person-negative. "They" is correct third-person gender-neutral. Or characters could be designated "Gender-indeterminate unit of shared-world interpersonal interaction of indetermined state." GIUOSWIIOIS, for short.

Don't. Really.

JamesonCourage · Nov 8, 2013

Random Bystander said:
Ok, I have a challenge for you. The next time you read one of your rulebooks, replace every gender instance with "She".

If you're fine with that change, and can view it as gender-neutral, than carry on.

When I wrote my own rulebook (about 320 pages), I made sure to only include "he" and not "she". I could read a book that only said "she", but I think it'd be jarring; I was taught that "he" was essentially used in the general sense, and unless we're referring to a specific person, to use "he" over "she".

Seeing "he" and "she" didn't bug me (in any sort of real huge way) in the 3.X PHBs, etc., but it kinda seemed forced, in a way. I'm not sure how to describe it. A lot of the time it felt natural, but sometimes it just stood out.

Anyways, I have no intention of using "she" (in the general sense) in my own rule book over "he". That has to do with how I was taught to read; my first reaction on reading "she" is "she who?" So, to me, it's not general. Admittedly, if I was reading a rule book where that was the case, I think it'd be less jarring after I got used to it.

For me, this is more a matter of "I've been trained to read this way, and breaking this pattern means it makes it harder to read things." Am I okay with "she"? In a moral sense, absolutely. But, honestly, it makes it harder for me to read things (until I adapt to it), thus my preference for "he" in the general sense.

Side note: I'm okay with "they" as a second choice, because I tend to use that word verbally (though I guess I'm more formal in my reading / writing habits). And, as I said, I'm okay with a mixture of "he"/"she" when linked to examples; when I think "she who?", the book will provide an answer. Win/win, as far as I can tell.

Random Bystander · Nov 8, 2013

JamesonCourage said:
When I wrote my own rulebook (about 320 pages), I made sure to only include "he" and not "she". I could read a book that only said "she", but I think it'd be jarring; I was taught that "he" was essentially used in the general sense, and unless we're referring to a specific person, to use "he" over "she".

Seeing "he" and "she" didn't bug me (in any sort of real huge way) in the 3.X PHBs, etc., but it kinda seemed forced, in a way. I'm not sure how to describe it. A lot of the time it felt natural, but sometimes it just stood out.

Anyways, I have no intention of using "she" (in the general sense) in my own rule book over "he". That has to do with how I was taught to read; my first reaction on reading "she" is "she who?" So, to me, it's not general. Admittedly, if I was reading a rule book where that was the case, I think it'd be less jarring after I got used to it.

For me, this is more a matter of "I've been trained to read this way, and breaking this pattern means it makes it harder to read things." Am I okay with "she"? In a moral sense, absolutely. But, honestly, it makes it harder for me to read things (until I adapt to it), thus my preference for "he" in the general sense.

Side note: I'm okay with "they" as a second choice, because I tend to use that word verbally (though I guess I'm more formal in my reading / writing habits). And, as I said, I'm okay with a mixture of "he"/"she" when linked to examples; when I think "she who?", the book will provide an answer. Win/win, as far as I can tell.

Thank you for the explanation.

Cadence · Nov 8, 2013

I'm always amazed at the continued influence of a handful self-proclaimed grammarians from centuries past. My favorite is the hypercorrection of Octopuses into Octopi (because who cares about the actual etymology of things?).

If Octopi is now correct, in spite of its incorrect origin, because it has been in use for so long... then why not give something with a stronger pedigree the chance to rise back into respectability?

So I vote for throwing off their (plural) tyranny and going back to having they as an acceptable singular. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/words/he-or-she-versus-they
(Or are y'all confused by you being both plural and singular too?)

JamesonCourage · Nov 8, 2013

Cadence said:
(Or are y'all confused by you being both plural and singular too?)

I'm against it because it's jarring for me, not confusing. Also, I don't really appreciate the light attack here; let's try to keep things a little more civil if we can, please? I'm definitely making an effort to explain myself and my position (in response to what may have been other attacks of "sexism").

This isn't a bad topic. I really doubt it'll affect WOTC's decision (which will almost certainly be alternating "he" and "she"), but it's good to discuss, and people close to / inside WOTC might read it. And it helps anyone else here that's reading this who is writing a rule book. But, if we're going to discuss things, can we do it without the attacks? I think that'd be a lot more productive.

Shemeska · Nov 8, 2013

JamesonCourage said:
Do you think I feel like D&D is a boy's club? Do you think I'm sexist, or that the women in my life feel like I am? I'm just trying to gauge what you're trying to say here, and I want to be absolutely clear before I continue.

I couldn't say. I don't have any insight into how you feel on the subject.

The use of male pronouns as a non-gender-specific default isn't necessarily sexist, and probably for most people it isn't by intent, but it's IMO misguided if you're trying to be inclusive to folks besides men.

Cadence · Nov 8, 2013

JamesonCourage said:
I'm against it because it's jarring for me, not confusing. Also, I don't really appreciate the light attack here;

Gack, I hadn't realized how that sounded after your post! You were quite clear, and I should have been more clear that I wasn't addressing you in particular. I addressing one of the arguments made in the links I had been looking for and mashed it (unsuccessfully) with a y'all vs. you analogy going for some humor. I shouldn't try that late at night... Sorry.

Pronouns in D&D - How should gender be handled?

How should pronouns be handled in RPGs?

Use masculine pronouns generically.

Alternate between masculine and feminine pronouns. (Explain how the pronouns should alternate.)

Use 'they' as a generic pronoun.

Try to avoid pronoun usage altogether.

Something else. (Please explain below.)

JamesonCourage

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Random Bystander

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Olgar Shiverstone

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JamesonCourage

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Cadence

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