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Lots of posters disagree with each other, that isn't trolling. Exploration of ideas through debate and discussion is something most people here are fine with. Trolling is a matter of attutide, motive, and how you say things. If you are sniping at other posters, pestering other posters or just being rude, it is going to generate a negative response. I get the sense that folks are asking others to just ignore their insults and bad manners. I think if you come to a forum and your posts create the impression that you are trolling, you should probably ask what you can do differently to get your point across, rather than insist people change how they react to you. Every forum is a little different, and has its own expectations.going to a new forum is like joining a new club, going to a new game store or playing with a new group of gamers. You get a sense of where the boundaries are and behave accordingly.
 

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Zombie_Babies

First Post
You know, a quote associated with an insane, sociopathic villain*... not exactly a great tool for convincing folks that it is a good idea :)

Why how ... serious of you. :p

That said, even the insane sociopath can teach us. You can't automatically discount something because of who said it. Take it in, try to understand it, see if it applies to you or could and then decide what to think. Hitler had some pretty amazing ideas that many countries stole and use today. They changed the world for the better. Had Eisenhower, for example, decided that a national highway system was evil because Hitler was, well, where would we be?

*ahem*

How's that for serious to the point of silly? Muahahaaaaaa!!

Why should anyone relax about being treated poorly? Relaxing about it, tolerating it, does not work to reduce its prevalence. And I don't see the jackass is having fun with you. He's having fun using you, which isn't really the same thing. Most folks don't take kindly to being used.

Well, the most effective tool when dealing with trolls is not fire but ... silence. See it for what is, move on. That simple.

Of course, we're not really talking about trolls treating people poorly - we're talking about people disagreeing with others and being seen as trolling because of how they approach the argument. But whatever. If someone chooses to see internet conversation on a forum devoted to playing games as srs bzns, well, there's not a whole lot I can say to change their mind.

My internet philosophy is this (like anyone is actually interested, heh) : You don't matter. Sounds harsh, I know, but the trick is that I apply the same thought to everyone equally - myself included. There's absolutely no reason to take anyone here seriously. None. That doesn't mean that I can't treat them with respect or honestly listen to them, all it means is that they can't possibly actually bother me. At all. Now there are exceptions - obviously if I'm seeking advice I'll listen to someone I trust and if I'm giving advice on a topic in serious manner I'll do so honestly. Other than that, though? Let's have some fun.

The greatest weapon we have against people being jerks is peer pressure. We ask folks to apply that pressure in constructive manners, within the site rules, of course.


*Admittedly, a wonderful performance depicting that villain.

Actually, it's my belief that the greatest weapon is silence. Some members choose that course but not all members - and that's the problem. You'll never get everyone to agree to not talk to someone who is awesome at pushing buttons. The only issue I see here is that people assume the worst really, really quickly and go into peer pressure or ignore mode. Just an observation - hell, maybe I'm off base.

The thought that "people shouldn't matter" is exactly the sort of emotional distancing that makes this possible. They're not real people, they're not here in front of me, so it's OK if I behave like a jackass (your word) and take potshots, looking for emotional weaknesses. Blaming people for reacting is blaming the victim. Don't excuse the behavior.

Trolling is emotional baiting and manipulation. It's immature, childish, juvenile behavior that hurts other people for the troll's personal pleasure. I'm no more interested in tolerating a troll than I am in tolerating someone that kicks animals.

If a stranger comes up to you in a restaurant and harasses you, you get the owner to throw him out.

Trolling and thinking someone is a troll cuz they disagree with you are two different things.

At any rate, dealing with a troll is easy: Ignore them. Some do, some don't.

This is telling, though. I'm talking about one thing and everyone here assumes it's something else.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
"You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Bullgrit again."

Goddamnit.
Giving XP to people who insult other posters by calling them troll, is that the peer pressure that promotes civility on EW and make it different from the rest of the internet?
 

Zombie_Babies

First Post
Giving XP to people who insult other posters by calling them troll, is that the peer pressure that promotes civility on EW and make it different from the rest of the internet?

We're not one of them. That's the impression I get, anyway. It's cool to be mean to the new kid.
 


Nellisir

Hero
Trolling and thinking someone is a troll cuz they disagree with you are two different things.
Not all "disagreement" is equal. If someone is spinning off red herrings, arguing selectively, ignoring contradictory evidence, getting personally insulting, and is unwilling (or apparently unable) to consider other points of view, that's being a...well, that word goes all :) :) :), so we'll say troll.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That said, even the insane sociopath can teach us.

That may be. But from the point of view of presentation, is serves you well to scrub the serial numbers off before you put it forward. "Hitler had this great idea...!" is kind of a hard sell, by putting too much emphasis on the source, rather than on the content.

Well, the most effective tool when dealing with trolls is not fire but ... silence. See it for what is, move on. That simple.

I didn't say fire. I said peer pressure. There's a difference.

And yes, I'm openly admitting that polite peer pressure (which can include pointed silence) is more powerful than the moderators, just in case anyone's noting that. We ask folks to report things to the mods rather than engage because humans have a really hard time keeping peer pressure calm and polite. But, a few folks can manage it, with a "Dude, that's not cool," and "So you know, going down that road is kind of asking for a moderator to come looking for you," and such. When it comes from an individual, it is often disregarded, but en masse, it becomes a potent message.

Of course, we're not really talking about trolls treating people poorly - we're talking about people disagreeing with others and being seen as trolling because of how they approach the argument. But whatever.

Yes, but there's the question that I don't think has been answered - why approach the discussion that way if you *aren't* trolling? What is to be gained in this approach?

My internet philosophy is this (like anyone is actually interested, heh) : You don't matter.

And that's fine. You get to choose your philosophy. It does have a slight mismatch with the local philosophy, in which we expect everyone to be shown a modicum of respect. To phrase it to be more obvious in contrast with your philosophy: Everyone matters at least a little bit.

I know you say that your philosophy doesn't mean you can't treat people with respect - but your philosophy doesn't mean you will, either.
 
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Nellisir

Hero
If someone chooses to see internet conversation on a forum devoted to playing games as srs bzns, well, there's not a whole lot I can say to change their mind.
I'm pretty sure Morrus has a fair amount of money involved here, so I would expect it to be serious business.

My internet philosophy is this (like anyone is actually interested, heh) : You don't matter. Sounds harsh, I know, but the trick is that I apply the same thought to everyone equally - myself included. There's absolutely no reason to take anyone here seriously. None. That doesn't mean that I can't treat them with respect or honestly listen to them, all it means is that they can't possibly actually bother me. At all. Now there are exceptions - obviously if I'm seeking advice I'll listen to someone I trust and if I'm giving advice on a topic in serious manner I'll do so honestly. Other than that, though? Let's have some fun.
Knowing that you think I don't matter, why would I ever want to take your advice? Why would you ever want to take mine?

Actually, it's my belief that the greatest weapon is silence.
“All it takes for evil to succeed is for a few good men to do nothing...”
- Edmund Burke

Some members choose that course but not all members - and that's the problem.
What you mean, then, is ostracization or exclusion. Non-engagement. Non-response. A sort of social shaming.

Just an observation - hell, maybe I'm off base.
Not off base in making an observation or criticism. I've got no problem with your observation. Not sure I even disagree with it.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Guys, let's be honest with each other for a moment, eh?

A couple of you have posted elsewhere that you are trolling us. Now, as of today, you've suddenly started hiding all that (we got screenshots at the time, don't worry), and you've deleted your private group here which contains several similar direct confirmations and a hell of a lot of fun descriptions of exactly what you think of us all.

Now, not all of you are. And even those who are, you're not doing it all of the time. But some of you are some of the time, and you've talked about that in the open elsewhere. Whoops, I guess; or not. But what's done is done, and cleaning up the evidence now is too late.

We've pretty much handled it, dealing with it all on a case by case basis. There were a few conversations, one short temp ban a while back (Cyclone Joker, who left over it, which was a shame, because he was contributing great stuff to the D&D forums when not insulting people), and that's mainly it. Persecuted, you were not. You were the opposite of persecuted. But self-admitted trolls who act all hurt when someone points that out - and you must know that various members here found their way over there and saw those posts with their own eyes, and that's why they're saying these things - that argument's not getting any traction any more.

So, let's do this:

1) Most of you have moved on of your own accord anyway, and that's OK - not everywhere is suited to everyone. But those still here, who are welcome to remain, need to stop the martyr act. Denying it isn't an option any more.

2) We have been pretty lenient so far in an attempt to let you acclimatize. That honeymoon period's over. While here, you're EN Worlders now. You're not new any more, and as far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as an OTter on this forum. Welcome to EN World.

3) Everyone else - we're going to be strict with you, too. The only way to deal with an issue like this is to report the post. That means no more trying to call people out, argue with them, etc. Use the report post and the ignore buttons, please, otherwise you'll find yourselves getting time-outs. There have been several occasions where the behaviour of long-time EN Worlders has been worse than the new guys ever were. We've had words with you about it privately, but form now on we'll be giving timeouts for that, too.

I hope that's clear. Now, this thread has pretty much devolved into mudslinging, passive aggressive asides, and sarcasm. I'm going to close it, and we're all going to get along pleasantly and peacefully. I hate, hate, hate having to moderate; it makes me feel icky, it creates enemies where I don't want them, and it makes me have to spend vast swathes of time babysitting threads when I have things to do. Please don't make me do that, eh?
 
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