Would you work...

Scott DeWar · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Okay, that makes sense. However, do you think you have to be like them in order to be good at the position? Do you have to be like them to even just sell cars?

I would feel like I have ~~dived~~ dove into a cesspool, if you know what I mean.

Ahnehnois · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Okay, that makes sense. However, do you think you have to be like them in order to be good at the position? Do you have to be like them to even just sell cars?

Assuming that working in the industry means making a good faith effort to succeed, it seems entirely possible to me that holding down a job in sales means resorting to unethical tactics just to keep up.

Homicidal_Squirrel · Feb 25, 2014

Scott DeWar said:
I would feel like I have dived into a cesspool, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I can understand not wanting to be around people like that. I have a friend who, along with his dad, owns a Ford dealership down here. I've met a lot of the sales people. Some are complete A-holes, and others are actually not bad. There are those who try to make enough money to pay their bills without trying to bilk you out of all your money, and there are those who try to bend you over and give it to you roughly.

Homicidal_Squirrel · Feb 25, 2014

Ahnehnois said:
Assuming that working in the industry means making a good faith effort to succeed, it seems entirely possible to me that holding down a job in sales means resorting to unethical tactics just to keep up.

Not necessarily. i think it all depends on the dealership, and how the sales people get paid. Not all dealerships pay their sales staff solely by commission.

Ahnehnois · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Not necessarily. i think it all depends on the dealership, and how the sales people get paid. Not all dealerships pay their sales staff solely by commission.

True. Maybe I'm just naive, but I thought the dealer I bought my car from was decent. I lived right near a place that does non-negotiated pricing so maybe that makes a difference.

My own sales experience in selling much smaller things suggests to me that commissions are bad. I was paid by the hour, and as a consequence I consider myself to have been a fairly objective and honest salesman. There were performance incentives, but they failed, which I thought was a good thing. When the place reformed and added in more meaningful performance metrics (among other things), I left.

And I think, in general, any sort of system that attempts to tie compensation to specific performance measures is a bad idea, because it creates an incentive to game the system. The same thing happens with police departments and crime numbers, health care providers that are paid by the procedure, brokerages that charge per transaction fees, and so on.

Homicidal_Squirrel · Feb 25, 2014

Ahnehnois said:
True. Maybe I'm just naive, but I thought the dealer I bought my car from was decent. I lived right near a place that does non-negotiated pricing so maybe that makes a difference.

My own sales experience in selling much smaller things suggests to me that commissions are bad. I was paid by the hour, and as a consequence I consider myself to have been a fairly objective and honest salesman. There were performance incentives, but they failed, which I thought was a good thing. When the place reformed and added in more meaningful performance metrics (among other things), I left.

And I think, in general, any sort of system that attempts to tie compensation to specific performance measures is a bad idea, because it creates an incentive to game the system. The same thing happens with police departments and crime numbers, health care providers that are paid by the procedure, brokerages that charge per transaction fees, and so on.

Yeah, pretty much. I've been to dealerships where the sales people only earn commission, and that usually leads to the sales person trying to get as much out of the buyer. The other part of care sale I hate is when you go in to finance the car. From my experience, whenever the first thing they ask you is "How much can you afford to pay per month," you're in for a bad time. I mean, what does it matter how much I can afford to pay if we don't even know what the car costs?

Scott DeWar · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
good stuff mentioned . . . . . I mean, what does it matter how much I can afford to pay if we don't even know what the car costs?

This.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Not necessarily. i think it all depends on the dealership, and how the sales people get paid. Not all dealerships pay their sales staff solely by commission.

this true. I do acknowledge this. I am trying to not generalize. I hope I do not come across as such

Ahnehnois said:
Assuming that working in the industry means making a good faith effort to succeed, it seems entirely possible to me that holding down a job in sales means resorting to unethical tactics just to keep up.

I have been in various sales jobs and I know this happens. I know many people of great repute and character that tried sales but got out because of what is expected of you to do to meet the sales goals would have the to ignore what they know to be right in their hearts.

Scott DeWar · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
. . . . . and there are those who try to bend you over and give it to you roughly.

those are the ones I am talking about

Umbran · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Or, you know, just me wondering about why people don't want to work in a particular industry. I figured it would be fine to ask for clarification about a reason if it wasn't clear to me. Have I overstepped some rule/boundary by asking? Is that not allowed?

It's allowed, but.. the method left something to be desired. Check your your "seeking clarification":

"In any case, saying that you have a "moral dilemma" that prevents you from working in one industry compared to another because of "the degree" to which you perceive it to occur in one industry seems like a cop-out. It's still occurring in both industries. So it isn't what is happening in the industry that bothers you, it's just how much you think it happens."

I dunno about you, but when I want to know something, I ask a question. "Dude, that's a cop out!" is not a question, it is a judgement. How is it seeking anything, except in a passive-aggressive way?

So what's your set minimum? Why is it set at that minimum?

My minimum, clearly, is somewhere between movies and porn. I don't think I can articulate it in a consistent and clear way beyond that - too much of ethical judgement is dependent on the details.

Why is it where it is? Because it makes *sense* to me.

Dannyalcatraz · Feb 25, 2014

Homicidal_Squirrel said:
Citation?

Actually, I already provided a link to a website where porn performers reported their own experiences with drugs and their perception of the drug use of their fellow performers.

Here's another post, though, from Shelley Lubben (who, BTW quotes another porn star's blog on use):
http://www.covenanteyes.com/2008/10/29/ex-porn-star-tells-the-truth-part-2/

And another: http://henrymakow.com/the_porn_industry.html

You can also find non-Grandma friendly (language) discussions of it from ex-performers like Jennie Ketcham, a drunken interview with Taylor Rain and testimony from Regan Starr, Jersey Jaxin, Trent Roe, Linda Lovelace and others.

Further, in the International Journal of Sexual Health in September 2012, Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania psychologist James Griffith and his colleagues reported (among other things) that the stereotype that porn stars use more drugs (esp. marijuana) than the average person was at least partially true.

(Caveat: porn stars are reluctant to cooperate with researchers, so his data does have issues. They also have an average career in the biz of 18 months or less, so that skews things as well.)

We also have testimony that drug use in the porn industry is not universal- Kayden Kross, an adult film actress and writer, claims to be drug free and refuses to work on screen with those who indulge.