Would you have allowed this?

My group, using 5e playtest rules, is currently enjoying the Temple of Elemental Evil interwoven with other published adventures (Caves of Chaos/The Keep on the Borderlands, Elwyn's Sanctuary and Queen's Harvest).

The party managed to find the "Golden Key" (the mask and recovered the 4 gems), but were not able to clear out the Temple. They did their research and uncovered some knowledge about the artefact's powers. During their last foray to the Temple, they were ambushed by a welcome party outside on the Temple grounds. The mage PC cast Haste on the Barbarian PC, which in the playtest rules, once the Haste spell ends the character becomes lethargic for a round. Upon that round the mage PC cast Invisibility on the Barbarian PC, in an attempt to protect him.

Using the Invisibility, the Barbarian PC who had had a taste of the skull mask's power after wearing it for a few minutes, decided to steal the artefact for himself from the wizard PC, who to him, was being far too possessive over it.

The mask was placed in a sack, tucked away in the backpack of the wizard PC who wore it on him all the time. The Barbarian PC swapped the sack with the mask with a sack of iron rations. I ruled for him to make a stealth roll, no bonus even though he was invisible, against a roll by the wizard PC's Perception - who with roll and modifiers got a 10. (I made the entire party role, so no player would suspect what the Barbarian PC was doing, cause once players know - metagame goes into overdrive).
During the combat the wizard PC was aiding knights and their squires (henchman they brought along) against a hobgoblin unit, some trolls and two Air elementals which was coordinated by the unseen high priest of the Temple of Air.
The wizard PC did inform me that he wanted to catch one or two of the Air Elemental's with his fireball as they were scooping in and grabbing squires, pulling them into the air and dropping them onto the knights. So I imagined their would be a moment he would be concentrating calculating for the best possible time to let off his fireball - and that is when I allowed the Barbarian to steal the mask/make his roll.

The question I have is, would you have allowed the Barbarian PC to steal the mask? And if yes discuss what mechanic/DC would you have utilised - whichever the edition. I certainly did not want to make this a skill challenge.

Just for insight into my thinking at the time, I'm experimenting with the spirit of saying "yes" to PCs more often (within reasonableness of course) to see where and how that that leads our adventures and how much enjoyment that generates at the table.
In this regard we had a pretty great session, despite the fact that the Barbarian PC with this action and subsequent actions has taken party "astray" from completing their goals, all in an effort to misdirect any suspicion on him by the other PCs in relation to the missing artefact.

I may have allowed the attempt, but even then with a huge bonus to the Perception check that makes success virtually impossible.

Though I think with the game I am currently playing, I would have even skipped the roll and told the player outright that the attempt gets detected. When success is impossible, there's no need to roll dice anymore.

I'm presuming the wizard was wearing his pack. You let the barbarian open the pack, dig out the buried bag with artifact, put the ration bag in place of it, repackage the bag with the other items, and close it up, all while the wizard is calculating, measuring and spell casting? That sounds like a feat for a 20th level rogue to me!

Sadras said:

Using the Invisibility, the Barbarian PC who had had a taste of the skull mask's power after wearing it for a few minutes, decided to steal the artefact for himself from the wizard PC, who to him, was being far too possessive over it.

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Was it the barbarian thinking the wizard was being possessive, or the barbarian's player thinking the wizard's player was being possessive? Or both?

This is something that I likely wouldn't allow simply because it has great potential to result in real player vs. player anger. Unless the players are very familiar with each other, and can handle PC vs. PC theft in good jest, I'd bring the issue up out of character. Probably at the game session's end.

Sadras said:

The mask was placed in a sack, tucked away in the backpack of the wizard PC who wore it on him all the time.

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I tend to assume back packs are dropped on the floor at the start of combat and other situations were they are impractical. If the wizard was insisting he was wearing it 'all the time', I would probably start to impose some pretty hefty penalties.

jadrax said:

I tend to assume back packs are dropped on the floor at the start of combat and other situations were they are impractical. If the wizard was insisting he was wearing it 'all the time', I would probably start to impose some pretty hefty penalties.

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Any penalties should already be handled in the encumbrance rules. For a character who is probably mostly standing back, waving a hand and chanting a few words now and then, a backpack shouldn't be a major issue.

As to the OP - In general, staling something from a closed backpack that a person is wearing, in the middle of combat, is *hard*. I wouldn't give a flat "no", but I'd have to think about the target number of that one - it would probably be pretty high.

Umbran said:

As to the OP - In general, staling something from a closed backpack that a person is wearing, in the middle of combat, is *hard*. I wouldn't give a flat "no", but I'd have to think about the target number of that one - it would probably be pretty high.

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Yup. And although you mentioned you didn't want to use a skill challenge... I probably would have. Or at the very least, had the Barbarian make several checks against the Wizard's Perception to notice. Some combination or order of Stealth, Deception, and Sleight of Hand checks. Probably a Stealth check first to remain unnoticed behind the Wizard, then a Sleight of Hand check to get the backpack open and reach down to the bottom, then a Deception check to see how well the ration weight replacement worked out. Done over the course of three rounds and deciding on DCs and whether to apply Adv/Disadv based upon what the Wizard was doing at the time.

I appreciate the replies. Further clarification.

The result was the Barbarian, with modifiers and discounting that he was Invisible scored a 15 while the Wizard scored a 10. The mass combat with the knights vs the enemy was mostly down-timed with me rolling every round to see if the PCs were made targets by the enemy or the knights/squires they travelled with.
The Barbarian Invisible as he was had just under 10 rounds to steal the item.

There is also nothing stopping me from ruling that the item was stolen before the party left for the ToEE as the wizard only saw the item the night before, but that is certainly a bit of a fudge!

Yora said:

I may have allowed the attempt, but even then with a huge bonus to the Perception check that makes success virtually impossible.

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I must admit that would have been my usual response.

Gilladian said:

I'm presuming the wizard was wearing his pack. You let the barbarian open the pack, dig out the buried bag with artifact, put the ration bag in place of it, repackage the bag with the other items, and close it up, all while the wizard is calculating, measuring and spell casting? That sounds like a feat for a 20th level rogue to me!

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Can't argue with that.

Tequila Sunrise said:

Was it the barbarian thinking the wizard was being possessive, or the barbarian's player thinking the wizard's player was being possessive? Or both?

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The barbarian thinks the wizard PC is possessive (although honestly the wizard player plays himself).

This is something that I likely wouldn't allow simply because it has great potential to result in real player vs. player anger. Unless the players are very familiar with each other, and can handle PC vs. PC theft in good jest, I'd bring the issue up out of character. Probably at the game session's end.

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Thankfully the players are too thick-skinned and familiar with each others quirks to let this be an issue.

jadrax said:

I tend to assume back packs are dropped on the floor at the start of combat and other situations were they are impractical. If the wizard was insisting he was wearing it 'all the time', I would probably start to impose some pretty hefty penalties.

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No, his carry backpack is pretty light. The heavier stuff is in the saddlebags which was left on the horse he rode on to get to the Temple. They were not on horseback during combat.

Umbran said:

As to the OP - In general, staling something from a closed backpack that a person is wearing, in the middle of combat, is *hard*. I wouldn't give a flat "no", but I'd have to think about the target number of that one - it would probably be pretty high.

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Fully agree. As I said, I was attempting experimenting with the "yes" train of thought. You could say I'm more of the "Mother May I DM" which I don't find anything wrong with it, and the players all know where they stand. Even in cases where a "Mother May I" scenario comes up - we usually discuss it as a group. Negotiation between DM-player/s are normal.
I would agree I was too lenient in this situation. Thing is, what would the DM's anti-"Mother May I" styles have done? Just offer a high DC like 18-20 or higher still?

Umbran said:

Any penalties should already be handled in the encumbrance rules. For a character who is probably mostly standing back, waving a hand and chanting a few words now and then, a backpack shouldn't be a major issue.

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I can only go on personal experience, but when I walk the Pennine way, I can tell you that every chance to take your pack off, you take.

Its not just the facts its heavy, its that it completely alters your balance. Even sitting down with a full pack on is pretty ill advised because it pulls you down in ways you really don't want to bend. Actually trying to dodge a sword blow or an arrow, I would think you would end up on the floor 90% of the time.

DEFCON 1 said:

Yup. And although you mentioned you didn't want to use a skill challenge... I probably would have. Or at the very least, had the Barbarian make several checks against the Wizard's Perception to notice. Some combination or order of Stealth, Deception, and Sleight of Hand checks. Probably a Stealth check first to remain unnoticed behind the Wizard, then a Sleight of Hand check to get the backpack open and reach down to the bottom, then a Deception check to see how well the ration weight replacement worked out. Done over the course of three rounds and deciding on DCs and whether to apply Adv/Disadv based upon what the Wizard was doing at the time.

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Sure - perhaps a few more checks could have given the action more weight.
Just to point out a few things, the Barbarian was Invisible, if that counts as having Advantage in 5e (I didn't bother checking), I didn't give it to him purposefully. He made certainly made the 1st Stealth check.
Regarding the weight replacement - I don't have the module in front of me right now, but I doubt the mask weighs a lot.