D&D 5E 5.0 necromancer

Obryn said:

It doesn't take a hundred to break the game. That's the extreme case. It takes maybe 20.

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Yeah, as I said, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket like that--the skeleton army is far too vulnerable to AoE and simple attrition. Moreover, the DM doesn't even have to kill your skeletons to cripple you. Just making you go into a dungeon will do the trick; if you're fighting in narrow corridors and relatively small rooms, you'll play hell trying to bring your unwieldy army to bear on the enemy. Anybody play a Diablo 2 necromancer in the early days, when minions could block movement? Gaah.

But a warband of 10-20 skeleton archers is a serious threat and can be achieved at moderate levels, while holding back slots for regular spellcasting. You'll still face challenges in a dungeon environment, but not insurmountable ones. And in some ways confined spaces will work in your favor, making it easier to keep the enemy from getting into melee with your archers.

I'm going to be playing in a 12th-level short adventure in a couple weeks. I'll make a necromancer, give it a try, and report back.

I'll reply in more detail later, but I want to quickly clear up what may be a misconception: I've deliberately avoided anything questionable or cheesy in my examples. I'm not talking about cast/rest/cast or cast/rest/control/cast/repeat, both of which greatly inflate the number of skeletons you can have at your command.

My examples are based on one day's spells, cast and go.

As an aside, if instead of one-shotting enemies we look at replicating the performance of other classes, it only takes 8 Skeletons shooting at the Adult Blue Dragon to outdamage a level 16 Fighter once he's used his action surge and superiority dice (i.e. every round after the first).

That's a single level 6 spell slot. Or two level 4 spell slots, which are conveniently what you can regain with Arcane Recovery at level 16.

So you're beating the Fighter's damage output as a Bonus action just by expending your Arcane Recovery, and you still have your full repertoire of spells​ for the day.

Obryn said:

With bounded accuracy, you no longer need to rely on crits.

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My "crits" response was to your pointing out that hiring 100 archers wouldn't be as effective. If you agree that hiring 100 archers is also effective, that's cool, too. Either way the point is that the necromancer is hardly the only character that can break the game with 100 minions doing something all at once (assuming it was allowed).

I definitely disagree that just 20 skeletons is anywhere close to as dangerous. Our CR 16 dragon can kill dozens at a time with a breath weapon, and use legendary actions to escape. 20 skeletons will probably buy you a couple rounds at best, and that is still at least 4 or 5 mid-level spell slots. I think you could find a better use for those slots.

Really, the main way this "breaks" is when you pour 100% of your resources into making scores and scores of "dinky" guys, abusing the "bounded" nature of the rules and the "store up" power of investing your spell slots into something that can happen on one action.

I think earlier in 5.0 discussion someone asked why a party couldn't just get an entire village to shoot a dragon all at once, since that would kill it (especially since there is no DR anymore). There's not really a response to that; if you're asking "is it possible to break the game by following the letter of the rule" the answer is yes. But again: not likely to happen in actual play.

Jack the Lad said:

As an aside, if instead of one-shotting enemies we look at replicating the performance of other classes, it only takes 8 Skeletons shooting at the Adult Blue Dragon to outdamage a level 16 Fighter once he's used his action surge and superiority dice (i.e. every round after the first).

That's a single level 6 spell slot.

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That's a great example. A 6th level spell will absolutely (potentially) outdamage a level 16 fighter's normal attack routine every time. Let's look at another example: Chain Lightning. 10d8, half on a save damage to up to 4 targets. That's 180 average damage, 90 on full saves. How long until 8 skeletons can do that much damage? How likely are they to do that much before they are destroyed? THAT is the power level of a 6th level spell. In fact, the skeletons are probably quite low in damage compared to evocations, but when you factor in the HP soak factor, it's a bit better.

And as I said above: it takes the Adult Blue about 2 legendary actions to nullify the entire 8 skeleton group, and it gets 3 of them per turn. You're buying a round or two, at best - which is about the right power level for a 6th level spell.

Dausuul said:

I'm going to be playing in a 12th-level short adventure in a couple weeks. I'll make a necromancer, give it a try, and report back.

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Please please please let me know how this goes! That sounds awesome, and it will definitely help to have more live data.

Another factor in the "this is possible" camp: extended downtime... If you can run a castle, you can probably raise a horde...

As someone who has been a loud, vocal hater of caster supremacy in every edition of D&D ever, let me just say this: WOOOT! I CAN FINALLY MAKE A REAL NECROMANCER!

I...feel bad about not feeling bad about this, but at the same time it isn't as powerful as it looks. The GM can easily make it impossible for a necromancer PC to actually succeed at raising his undead army, though that GM is probably missing the point of the game.

I'm a BIG fan of specialist wizards. Loved the 1e Illusionist as a separate class. Loved the break down of magic schools in 2e...and we've [properly, imho] been using that ever since.

But I've been thinkin' and musin' and tinkering away at my homebrew game/system [that I'm writing over from scratch since my old laptop was stolen in France. Back up files you want to keep/are important, people. Back 'em up! Right now!]...b'anywho, I am at a point where I think...and kinda like the idea/flavor there is to taking Necromancers out as separate "Specialist Mage" from level 1.

I am leaning, heavily and seriously, toward making Necro's...for lack of a better term...a Prestige-style class. Something that any Mage or Cleric from a certain level can transition into...I'm thinking a minimum of level 5, since that would be where Animate Dead and Speak with Dead, typically, enter the picture -as a 3rd level spell. Maybe 6th or 7th.

Then, at least this is how I'm thinking, you don't run into the issues with the undead "pets" or other "life-sapping" powers. They are already a powerful caster...and now their delving into the Darker side of the arts that most mages either have no interest in or are fearful of pursuing.

It has a bit of "the Necromancer" from LotR giving chills to high[er] level beings...since to become a Necromancer in the first place, you have to already be pretty powerful.

And, I never played it, but wasn't there a "Dread Necromancer" prestige class in 3.x that [from my readings in these forums at least] seemed pretty darned popular. So there's that kinda flavor as well.

Just sayin'...if you want to beef up your Necro's powers, [or think they're "too good" at 1st level] make them a higher level option.

steeldragons said:

I'm a BIG fan of specialist wizards. Loved the 1e Illusionist as a separate class. Loved the break down of magic schools in 2e...and we've [properly, imho] been using that ever since.

But I've been thinkin' and musin' and tinkering away at my homebrew game/system [that I'm writing over from scratch since my old laptop was stolen in France. Back up files you want to keep/are important, people. Back 'em up! Right now!]...b'anywho, I am at a point where I think...and kinda like the idea/flavor there is to taking Necromancers out as separate "Specialist Mage" from level 1.

I am leaning, heavily and seriously, toward making Necro's...for lack of a better term...a Prestige-style class. Something that any Mage or Cleric from a certain level can transition into...I'm thinking a minimum of level 5, since that would be where Animate Dead and Speak with Dead, typically, enter the picture -as a 3rd level spell. Maybe 6th or 7th.

Then, at least this is how I'm thinking, you don't run into the issues with the undead "pets" or other "life-sapping" powers. They are already a powerful caster...and now their delving into the Darker side of the arts that most mages either have no interest in or are fearful of pursuing.

It has a bit of "the Necromancer" from LotR giving chills to high[er] level beings...since to become a Necromancer in the first place, you have to already be pretty powerful.

And, I never played it, but wasn't there a "Dread Necromancer" prestige class in 3.x that [from my readings in these forums at least] seemed pretty darned popular. So there's that kinda flavor as well.

Just sayin'...if you want to beef up your Necro's powers, [or think they're "too good" at 1st level] make them a higher level option.

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Dread Necromancer is a base class, and quite possibly the only Necromancer ever in D&D to even come close to getting it right and letting you feel like a Necromancer from level 1. Let me repeat that: From level 1. If i'm making a necromancer, I want to do it from level 1 (i'll accept level 3 in 5E), not have to take some super-special class with random prereqs after I hit fifth level. Not getting to actually play my concept until i'm already a quarter of the way through the campaigns life expectancy = bad.

Savevsdeath said:

Dread Necromancer is a base class, and quite possibly the only Necromancer ever in D&D to even come close to getting it right and letting you feel like a Necromancer from level 1. Let me repeat that: From level 1. If i'm making a necromancer, I want to do it from level 1 (i'll accept level 3 in 5E), not have to take some super-special class with random prereqs after I hit fifth level. Not getting to actually play my concept until i'm already a quarter of the way through the campaigns life expectancy = bad.

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You can play your PC however you want. Put 'em in tattered grave-dust covered robes with a skull-tipped staff and a pale/sickly complexion. Make them creepy. Interested in anatomy, death,...other unsavory things. You can be the best "dark magician-in-training-to-be-a-dark-wizard" there ever was.

Then, just when your compatriots (and the local mage's guild and constables) think you couldn't get any creepier or more concerning/dangerous...You finally understand. You see it all. You have mastered the energies of life and death. You can not only speak to spirits but summon them to do your bidding. You can heal yourself/steal life energy from others. Enter their dreams to create nightmares and fortify your own health/mind with their fear. You can make the graveyard erupt into a battalion of mindless soldiers under your command...Thunder crashes! A hundred of ravens take wing in a cacophony of caws! The very air around you becomes bone-chilling and plants visibly wilt a little as your pass. A well-timed streak of lightning announces your arrival as you proclaim, "FINALLY, I AM...NECROMANCER!"

[<wringing hands> yesss...good...very good...boowah ha ha...]

Now that they have released more monsters in the basic rules (for DMs), we can see the ghoul, wight, and mummy - although curiously not the ghast.

Ghoul
The ghoul is like a slightly-better CR 1 zombie, with 33 HP when you can first create them, 12 AC, and better attack and damage: +4 to hit for 12 damage (never changes). The real kicker for the ghoul is the (very low) DC 10 Con save or paralyze on a hit. It doesn't work on undead or elves (or any monster that is immune) and you can save each round to end it (otherwise it lasts 1 minute). Not that effective except en masse; with enough ghouls hitting you, you'll probably fail eventually - but probably not for long. For a 6th level spell you get 3 of these. You could have up to 25 of these at level 20, using all your level 6+ slots - although hordes of melee combatants are less scary than archers, and by level 20 you're comparing this to 40d6 damage over an entire battlefield, so... there's that.

How do they stack up? Well there's not a lot of higher-level monsters in the new Basic update, actually. One CR 9, one CR 10, and one CR 17 - that's it. (Even the Horde supplement only gives two 13s and a 16, and they are all dragons except the vampire - who is undead and therefore immune to paralyze). The CR 10 monster is a Stone Golem, and it's immune to paralyze and non-magical weapons, so it's a terrible example; they couldn't even hurt it (and neither could your skeletons). The CR 9 monster is the Fire Giant, but it can hurl rocks for 29 damage while the ghouls get close, and then do two attacks / round for 28 damage each, so they won't last long. It gets a +6 to Con saves, so it only has a 15% chance to get paralyzed (and then an 85% chance to overcome it at the end of its turns). So again: not really any kind of challenge. And the CR 13 Adult White dragon in the Horde supplement also gets +6 to Con saves and can shred these guys pretty well, too. You are probably better off with 10 archer skeletons for your spell slot instead of 3 ghouls (skeletons having 23 HP, 13 AC, and doing 10 damage with the same +4 to hit by this point).

Wight
A wight is like a CR 3 skeleton: it can use a sword or bow twice per turn, and once per turn it can life drain (instead of one attack with a sword) for 10 damage by the time you can make them; failing a DC 13 Con save your total HP is reduced by 10. This is pretty useless against anything you'd be fighting at 15th level, since even by CR 8 everything has around 150 HP - and healing affects PCs MUCH more than monsters. Technically you could do something with this, since up to 12 humanoids slain by this attack rise as zombies under the wight's control - effectively increasing the total number of zombies you could get going. But 12 zombies is definitely not as scary as 12 skeletons, since melee attacks are always limited by physical space.

Wights have 14 AC and a respectable 60 HP when you can first create them, plus they resist non-magical attacks (which most monsters will have by CR 15). They still have a poor +4 to hit and 11 damage on their attacks. You can make two of these at 15th level and technically three more at 17th level, but you'll never have more than five. They also have a pretty huge disadvantage in that they are sensitive to sunlight (disadvantage on attacks), which makes them much better as meat shields. Again: when it comes to two of these or 14 skeletons, there's not much reason to go wight unless you know you can bring along 24 zombies with them as well, and then it's just for the manpower; the skeletons will probably still do more damage.

Mummy
Mummies are like CR 3 zombies. 11 AC but a respectable 75 HP when you can create them, they also get resistance to non-magical attacks and a few more immunities (like paralyzed and frightened). They have a +5 attack that does 30 damage, which is nice, as well as potentially afflicting the target with mummy rot, but that's even more useless than the wight power against monsters (unless your plan is to hit them and run away), and it doesn't even raise additional troops. It can only attack 1/round but it can also on each round use a gaze attack with a VERY low DC 11 Wis vs. frightened (and if you super-fail, you are paralyzed), but it only lasts a turn and anyone who saves once is immune to any mummy's glare for a day.

There's really not much more to the mummies; they are meat shields at best, but their low AC won't keep them up long. They actually do the least damage of any of your options since you can never have more than two of these. If you'd rather spend your 9th level slot on skeletons - and you probably would - you can control 16.


We haven't seen ghasts yet, but they are considered on-par with the wights by the spell, and are probably less party-friendly, at least if previous editions are a guide. The main issue with Create Undead is that because Animate Undead has such a high upper bound on what you can do with a bunch of archers, unless you're trying to create a very specific effect, Animate Dead is typically better. If compared to only itself and evocations at the same spell level, the spell seems pretty balanced (or even underpowered) at all levels.