Why do D&D players put such an emphasis on rules and tactics?

Yora · Sep 1, 2014

We'll see how that will work out for them. After 15 years, there's lots of people for who D&D has always been about miniatures on a grid and looking for another +1 bonus somewhere. Those who feel that "true D&D" should be rules-light with lots of handwaving might be a minority by now.

Raith5 · Sep 1, 2014

Yora said:
We'll see how that will work out for them. After 15 years, there's lots of people for who D&D has always been about miniatures on a grid and looking for another +1 bonus somewhere. Those who feel that "true D&D" should be rules-light with lots of handwaving might be a minority by now.

I doubt it. I think the success of 13th age and 5e shows that the design space of rpgs has moved decisively away from the grid. Mind you I used the grid since 1e so I think 3e and 4e were more like grid + heavy rules and mechanics (for good and ill).

Neonchameleon · Sep 1, 2014

D&D has been a hacked tabletop wargame ever since 1974 (other arguably than 4e being a hacked tabletop boardgame). The D&D rulebooks are hardly the Fate Core/Accelerated rulebooks - and the AD&D rulebooks (especially 1e AD&D) are incredibly rules dense.

If you want to play without rules then why are you spending $150 (at 5e new costs) for them? You aren't playing freeform+ as Fate tries to be, and you aren't playing Class-as-metaphor as Monsterhearts does so well. What you spent the money on is a large, crunchy, rules intensive game. So you talk about what the game brings to the table - which is rules.

Those who feel "True D&D" should be rules light were people who rejected AD&D in favour of oD&D, B/X or BECMI/RC. They always were a minority of those who stuck with the game.

Crothian · Sep 1, 2014

Neonchameleon said:
D&D has been a hacked tabletop wargame ever since 1974 (other arguably than 4e being a hacked tabletop boardgame). The D&D rulebooks are hardly the Fate Core/Accelerated rulebooks - and the AD&D rulebooks (especially 1e AD&D) are incredibly rules dense.

Fate has some complexity to it I would use a different example for rules light.

If you want to play without rules then why are you spending $150 (at 5e new costs) for them? You aren't playing freeform+ as Fate tries to be, and you aren't playing Class-as-metaphor as Monsterhearts does so well. What you spent the money on is a large, crunchy, rules intensive game. So you talk about what the game brings to the table - which is rules.

To some of use $150 is not a lot of money but I am paying half that. Monsterhearts is fine but it is not fantasy dungeon crawling. There is the phrase D&D heartbreaker for a reason because we have all kinds of games that try to do what D&D does and fail. So, people keep with D&D and make it rules light because it works for them and it is a thousand times easier to find players for a version of D&D then Monsterhearts.

Those who feel "True D&D" should be rules light were people who rejected AD&D in favour of oD&D, B/X or BECMI/RC. They always were a minority of those who stuck with the game.

Anyone who throws around the phrase True D&D has no idea what they are talking about because there is no such beast.

Neonchameleon · Sep 1, 2014

Crothian said:
Fate has some complexity to it I would use a different example for rules light.

Possibly so - but Fate Core/Accelerated is mostly emergent complexity. You could fit Fate 3.0 onto a trifold and Fate Core is cleaner. On the other hand it's not Lasers and Feelings or PDQ.

Anyone who throws around the phrase True D&D has no idea what they are talking about because there is no such beast.

There is that

Hussar · Sep 1, 2014

Quite simply because the other stuff you want to talk about only really applies to your table.

For example, I am currently running a short run dungeon crawl where the party has gone into an ancient vault. The vault is mechanical in nature, with three independent, nested rings. At random intervals, the rings begin spinning, completely rearranging the dungeon layout (I use 5d20 real time minutes to determine when the dungeon spins). The rings are mapped such that they interlock at 45 degree intervals, basically giving me 8 different maps using the same 9 encounters.

Since the spinning is random and very damaging, the party cannot get a complete rest inside the vault and since the entrance is only open to the outside during one of the 8 configurations, they cannot escape the vault either.

Lot's of fun.

But, at this point, what is there to talk about? I think it's a cool dungeon. The players seem pretty groovy with it. Not really sure what else there is to add.

OTOH, I could discuss, since this is a 4e game, how to incorporate a skill challenge into avoiding damage during the spinning process - IOW, a rules discussion and expect to get a fair bit of response. Certainly more than what I'd get just talking about my game. No one really likes gaming stories do they?

Libramarian · Sep 1, 2014

One contributing factor is that [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] needessly moves all homebrew/fan creation stuff into separate forums.

N'raac · Sep 1, 2014

Libramarian said:
One contributing factor is that @Morrus needessly moves all homebrew/fan creation stuff into separate forums.

Where it will be seen only by those who specifically go to that forum, presumably because they want to read and discuss those topics? Seems like that either stimulates discussion or highlights that no one else is interested.

TrippyHippy · Sep 2, 2014

Neonchameleon said:
D&D has been a hacked tabletop wargame ever since 1974 (other arguably than 4e being a hacked tabletop boardgame). The D&D rulebooks are hardly the Fate Core/Accelerated rulebooks - and the AD&D rulebooks (especially 1e AD&D) are incredibly rules dense.

With respect, I don’t regard FATE as being particularly light as a system, or non-tactical in approach. The game is driven quite heavily by mechanics, regardless of the association with ‘narrative’ gaming. I find the mechanics in D&D5E to be lighter and less obtrusive.

Haffrung · Sep 2, 2014

Yora said:
We'll see how that will work out for them. After 15 years, there's lots of people for who D&D has always been about miniatures on a grid and looking for another +1 bonus somewhere. Those who feel that "true D&D" should be rules-light with lots of handwaving might be a minority by now.

Presumably the D&D Next playtests showed that most participants were okay with rules-light D&D that de-emphasizes the grid, even if that isn't the way they've always played. The WotC devs have said how surprised they were that the preferences expressed in the playtest polls differed from those discussed on forums. It's probably what they mean when they say they catered too long to hardcore players, and people remember the stories generated in play more than what's written on a character sheet.

Neonchameleon said:
D&D has been a hacked tabletop wargame ever since 1974 (other arguably than 4e being a hacked tabletop boardgame). The D&D rulebooks are hardly the Fate Core/Accelerated rulebooks - and the AD&D rulebooks (especially 1e AD&D) are incredibly rules dense.

If you want to play without rules then why are you spending $150 (at 5e new costs) for them? You aren't playing freeform+ as Fate tries to be, and you aren't playing Class-as-metaphor as Monsterhearts does so well. What you spent the money on is a large, crunchy, rules intensive game. So you talk about what the game brings to the table - which is rules.

Those who feel "True D&D" should be rules light were people who rejected AD&D in favour of oD&D, B/X or BECMI/RC. They always were a minority of those who stuck with the game.

A lot of us drew no distinction between AD&D, B/X, and the rest. It was all D&D, and published adventures for the various systems were useable without any pre-session conversion. And ultimately, the game varied more table-to-table than edition-to-edition. At my table, and those of several other groups I knew, fast, furious, and gridless was the name of the game.

Why do D&D players put such an emphasis on rules and tactics?

Yora

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Raith5

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Neonchameleon

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Crothian

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