Why do D&D players put such an emphasis on rules and tactics?

Li Shenron

Legend
When I look at the character classes, what I look for is how well they’ll fit with a particular character I have in mind, or how cool they would be to play (in a narrative alter-ego way). The last thing I really care about is the best combo of abilities or what mechanical advantage they may or may not have over the other classes. I do recognise that combat and strategic play have their place in the game, but it isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of how you can have fun with it.

I like both the narrative aspects and the strategic ones, but also I like the space between where the two kind-of merge, which IMO is problem-solving.

I don't like at all making analysis on "effectiveness" of mechanics, and I don't like playing with people whose analysis end up making their PC dominate the action.

That doesn't mean however that I don't look at functional features of classes, or other game elements. I do look at them, because playing a new character which functions differently from my previous, is a little bit like playing a different game, and so it's something new and fun to try out.

Just to make an example, I've never played a Barbarian character, mostly because it just never came up as I had something else to play already. During the playtest, I really liked the description of the totem barbarians (particularly cougar and hawk), and this is the narrative/concept part that sparked an interest in me to play such character. But at the same time, I would also be interested to play it because of the Rage feature, which I've never played, because it's different, it has its own resource-management aspect, and it will require to think about how to use it tactically. Similarly, even tho I played Fighters before, I have never played a Fighter with the (new?) maneuvers system (actually I preferred the round-based playtest version, which was even more different) so this is the thing that currently makes me want to try play a Battlemaster, not so much the associated narrative to be honest.
 

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Yora

Legend
There is a good reason to have more rules for combat than for anything else. Because combat is the one thing that is the most in need of having rules to represent it.

Negotiation and Investigation are things that players and GM can actually do themselves. Tell the GM what your character wants to say, and tell the GM how your character is looking for clues. And the GM can determine success or failure based on reasoning and judging the situation alone.

Combat and magic are very different. You can't decide the outcome of a battle by giving the players swords and judging how nice they swing them around the table. In most groups, nobody at the table has any idea how fighting with weapons even work. Combat needs to be relegated to a dice game. There simply is no logical and obvious outcome when the players describe to the GM what their characters are trying to do.

Many, if not most people totally don't see it that way, but I consider AD&D to be one of the best games for roleplaying and investigation, because it has no rules for it. I don't need any rules that tell me "the king denies your request, even though you made very good points and it would be in his best interest" or in which a player says "I search the room. I got a 17." When negotiating and investigating gets outsourced to a minigame, players are no longer incentived to think about how they would attempt to solve something. All they need is to declare their goal, and in a worst case scenario, any additional elaboration they make on their characters actions doesn't affect the outcome at all.
Yes, you can roleplay with every system. But some systems have "don't bother, it doesn't affect the outcome" written between the lines everywhere.
 

Hussar

Legend
I strongly disagree. For one, there are tons of games out there where combat mechanics do not take up the majority of the rules.

Second, lacking rules, you are basically free forming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the idea that free forming is a somehow "better" kind of role playing is an idea that really has passed it's sell by date.

Just because DnD has had very poor mechanics for resolving actions outside of combat doesn't mean that those mechanics don't exist.
 

pemerton

Legend
When negotiating and investigating gets outsourced to a minigame, players are no longer incentived to think about how they would attempt to solve something.
What is your evidence for this claim? It does not fit with my own experience at all.
 

steenan

Adventurer
I agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] here (unfortunately, I can't XP them).

Many kinds of mechanical rules support engaging the situation, instead of ignoring them.

Rules that effectively skip over a situation or reframe it can be used intentionally for things that are not important and that players shouldn't waste time on. But it's not the only kind of rules. And, on the other hand, combat rules may be treated in the same way.


A handful of examples:

Skill rules in Nobilis (and Chuubo's) tell you how effective (moving towards your goal), productive (making your life better) and good-looking your actions are. But it's only through roleplaying the situation that you determine what it really means in given case.

In Fate you need to engage the situation (expressed mechanically as situational aspects) to gather bonuses. Not only that - the situation determines what you can and cannot do, so you don't always have access to all mechanical tools .

In Dogs in the Vineyard, rules model engaged conversation, physical conflict and shooting each other as a single mechanical resolution with escalation. The conflict as a whole has a stake, but each separate action also means more than just a step towards the goal. And usually, how far you're willing to go to get the stakes is more important than if you get them.

In Blood&Smoke (the newest Vampire), combat is by default resolved in a single roll and ends with one side surrendering or running away. While you can run a round-by-round combat, it is described as optional and useful only in special circumstances. This game is not about fighting and the simplified combat rules fit it really well.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I may be going out on a limb here. But isn't it possible that people focus on discussion of rules and tactics because combat is more FUN?
 

N'raac

First Post
Negotiation and Investigation are things that players and GM can actually do themselves. Tell the GM what your character wants to say, and tell the GM how your character is looking for clues. And the GM can determine success or failure based on reasoning and judging the situation alone.
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Many, if not most people totally don't see it that way, but I consider AD&D to be one of the best games for roleplaying and investigation, because it has no rules for it. I don't need any rules that tell me "the king denies your request, even though you made very good points and it would be in his best interest" or in which a player says "I search the room. I got a 17." When negotiating and investigating gets outsourced to a minigame, players are no longer incentived to think about how they would attempt to solve something. All they need is to declare their goal, and in a worst case scenario, any additional elaboration they make on their characters actions doesn't affect the outcome at all.

Yes, you can roleplay with every system. But some systems have "don't bother, it doesn't affect the outcome" written between the lines everywhere.

There are very different views in this regard. Some people want to play an agile Rogue or a mighty Warrior, even though they lack those traits (agility; strength; etc.) in real life. The game allows them to play the character they envision by providing rules for this.

A social wallflower may want to play a suave ladies' man or a cunning con man. A player not good with puzzles may want to play Sherlock Holmes. Mechanics for social interaction and investigation, respectively, permit the player to do so. Why should that not be permitted? If the player's oratorical skills, glibness or investigative skills determine success in these areas, then the player can only play his own skills, not those of the fictional character he envisions.

Then we get to "role playing". Your comments seem to imply role playing can only happen out of combat. I disagree. If my character loathes Goblins, this should be role pla yed - in combat, that means focusing my attacks on those vile Goblins. If my character is a wisecracking swashbuckler, then he will play in combat very differently from a grim, methodical avenger or a physical coward. That's "role playing".

Investigation? If my character has a 6 WIS and a 7 INT, portraying him as Sherlock Holmes deftly seeking out the subtle clues isn't playing that role. Nor is my 8 CHA character with no social skills played as a great orator and persuader role playing my character. It's role playing a character very different from the one I created.

Does that mean players have no ability to influence their odds? To the same extent, I suppose, that they have no ability to influence their success in combat. Casting the wrong spells, using an inappropriate weapon, attacking the wrong target, choosing the right maneuvers, teamwork to flank the enemy, or just concentrating missile fire on one opponent to reduce the opposition rather than spreading it out to lightly wound all of them are all decisions players can make that impact combat. They don't grant the characters any new abilities, or make it more likely the 8 STR Wizard's dagger will hit more regularly and more potently than the 19 STR Barbarian's War Axe. Player choices and character abilities combine to generate the combat narrative and results.

Similarly, interaction doesn't just mean rolling the dice. Do we do some homework on the King beforehand, perhaps approaching others who have contact with him, determine he fancies himself an expert in, and patron of, the arts, learning that he considers himself a man of peace, not of battle, etc. and tailor our approach to that knowledge - perhaps bringing him a gift such as an original manuscript of a famed playwright (maybe we found one in the dungeon and thought "what's this good for?" but haven't sold it yet) or leverage connections we have made with members of the local arts community, and tailoring our discussion not to the War against Evil, but the need to quickly and decisively end the raids and bring peace to the Hillsfolk. That's all tactics of social interaction, and we should gain bonuses.

Now, enough of those good points would stack enough bonuses that something already in the King's best interests (not a high difficulty for success) is guaranteed, just like a lone goblin isn't much of a threat to our party of 8th level characters. But neither are the stuff of the epic quests of Heroes - they're just easily overcome speedbumps. Tipping the balance of the war by persuading the isolationist, traditionally neutral nation to add its considerable resources to our side - allying with a side for the first time in hundreds of years? That's the stuff great games are made of. But it's also not likely to be a sure thing, and I want the pitch made by our 18 CHA orator and diplomat, not Crass the Cussing, 6 CHA Barbarian with the sole social skill of "do what I say or I'll thump ya". And I don't find it great role playing for Crass to suddenly take on the oratorical skills of a consummate politician because, today, that would be better than his usual personality and skill set.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
I may be going out on a limb here. But isn't it possible that people focus on discussion of rules and tactics because combat is more FUN?

I play a lot of different RPGs, and each one gets me something different. What I love about D&D is the combat. The miniatures (and I own a lot!), the tactical movement, the list of possible actions and spells that you have to go over and plan for, and especially the magic equipment that can be collected and used to kill things in more and better ways. For me, that's the draw of D&D.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Then we get to "role playing". Your comments seem to imply role playing can only happen out of combat. I disagree. If my character loathes Goblins, this should be role pla yed - in combat, that means focusing my attacks on those vile Goblins. If my character is a wisecracking swashbuckler, then he will play in combat very differently from a grim, methodical avenger or a physical coward. That's "role playing".

Yes, but when the question of rules to cover things come up, this aspect becomes a non-issue. There's a ton of rules for combat already. If your character wants to express his personality/role with weapons or other violence, the rules are there in full.

The question is whether we need or want rules for expressing personality/role in realms where many games are somewhat rules-deficient.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Yes, but when the question of rules to cover things come up, this aspect becomes a non-issue. There's a ton of rules for combat already. If your character wants to express his personality/role with weapons or other violence, the rules are there in full.

The question is whether we need or want rules for expressing personality/role in realms where many games are somewhat rules-deficient.

I'm a huge believer that rules certainly can promote expressing personality/role. They don't necessarily have to be so fine grained as say, GURPS combat rules (then again, IMNSHO, NOTHING needs to be that fine grained :D), but, the presence of rules works to channel player actions.

Take the idea of expressing character in combat. Sans any rules, there is no difference between the player who buckles his swash during combat, and the player who says, "I got an 18. Hit? Ok, 12 damage. " Adding in mechanics that reward player behaviour or, conversely, punish player behaviour, go a long way towards eliciting particular responses.

Is there really a question here? It's been shown pretty definitively in education circles that if you want particular results, you have to scaffold the lesson in a particular way. If you want your language class (I'm an ESL teacher, so bear with me) to focus on speaking using present simple, you have to create activities that promote speaking. Playing a tape and having the class do nothing but listening obviously won't work.

Same goes in games. If you want role play, you need to reward role play and the best way to do that is through mechanics which reward role play. So, the guy who buckles his swash is more effective than the guy who is playing Combat Bingo.

I mean, there's a reason that pretty much every other gamer out there looks down on D&D gamers as the nadir of role play.
 

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