is it me? FFG Star Wars

Chimpy · Sep 19, 2014

My group finds the dice system rather unwieldy as well. We like our combats quick and snappy, and the EotE system makes it hard work. We don't find it so bad for non-combat checks but often it's a hassle to deal with assembling the pool and interpreting the results for every check in the game.

Elven · Sep 19, 2014

Neonchameleon said:
Given that narrative play is almost the opposite of board game I'm not sure what you think you are trying to say. And I'm not entirely sure why your scare quotes are necessary.

The only thing I can figure out is that you personally find the mechanics difficult due largely to the lucky/unlucky axis or the unfamiliarity of the dice, and you are so personally used to adding up collections of d6s with (in at least one edition) one behaving differently from others that you personally find it unintrusive.

Thats just loaded with assumption,

Narrative due to the dice mechanic, Board game due the narrow system (I'm guessing the designers are use to creating/playing board games)
The two are not the same, and never said they were, just different perspectives of the same game,

You did not figure out, you are wrong,
One of the things i dislike about FATE is that the game system can pull you out of the moment, if you don't play it narrative,
Is that dice system also to complex for me to handle?, (four six sided fudge dice, not that hard, i hope you agree)
So, no, both game systems (if not played in "narrative") can be intrusive,
But I find the Star Wars dice system in this game more intrusive, (in forcing more attention away from the game flow, and towards the mechanic)

Now, which would be more easier for a young child to pick up and play, FFG Star Wars or WEG Star Wars?
I've seen adults take time to pick up the FFG system, I can imagine the frustration a child may have,

And "scare quotes" never heard it called that before, whats so scary?

Neonchameleon · Sep 19, 2014

Elven said:
Thats just loaded with assumption,

Narrative due to the dice mechanic, Board game due the narrow system (I'm guessing the designers are use to creating/playing board games)
The two are not the same, and never said they were, just different perspectives of the same game,

You did not figure out, you are wrong,
One of the things i dislike about FATE is that the game system can pull you out of the moment, if you don't play it narrative,
Is that dice system also to complex for me to handle?, (four six sided fudge dice, not that hard, i hope you agree)
So, no, both game systems (if not played in "narrative") can be intrusive,
But I find the Star Wars dice system in this game more intrusive, (in forcing more attention away from the game flow, and towards the mechanic)

Now, which would be more easier for a young child to pick up and play, FFG Star Wars or WEG Star Wars?
I've seen adults take time to pick up the FFG system, I can imagine the frustration a child may have,

And "scare quotes" never heard it called that before, whats so scary?

OK.

Game design 101: Every RPG there has ever been can be intrusive. WEG Star Wars isn't mysteriously non-intrusive. Every time you roll a bucket of dice and have to add it up that's intrusive and throws people out of the game (and WEG Star Wars goes high). And Fate is not intrusive if you accept the premises. It's hella-intrusive if you don't. In my experience Fate is easy, very easy, to teach to RPG newbies. But the more D&D experience they have the harder it is. Because you do things differently in Fate from in D&D so, although Fate is far more like their baseline fiction (making it much easier for newbies) people who try to force Fate into a D&D mold struggle.

As for your imagination, many adults IME have trouble picking up FFG's Star Wars because they are used to other RPGs. This does not apply to kids. Neither is anything approaching hard - but there is a conceptual leap in Edge of Empire where success and luck are separated. This does not come close to a system like D&D - but any kid can imagine it.

So I'd say that an adult with 20 years of D&D experience will pick up WEG's Star Wars faster. A kid? I'm giving the edge to the FFG version. The problems of teaching veteran roleplayers who came up through D&D include unteaching them - and that's why they struggle.

Scare Quotes are a common rhetorical technique.

Umbran · Sep 19, 2014

Elven said:
One of the things i dislike about FATE is that the game system can pull you out of the moment, if you don't play it narrative,

Neonchameleon said:
OK.
And Fate is not intrusive if you accept the premises. It's hella-intrusive if you don't. In my experience Fate is easy, very easy, to teach to RPG newbies. But the more D&D experience they have the harder it is. Because you do things differently in Fate from in D&D so, although Fate is far more like their baseline fiction (making it much easier for newbies) people who try to force Fate into a D&D mold struggle.

I'd add: FATE is typically easy for newbies, and for folks who play a wide variety of games, so that they've already seen a bunch of different mechanics. If you focus on one game, or one type of game, FATE (or any game with base mechanics really different from what you're used to) can give you a speedbump. That'smore about mental habits than anything else.

And, FATE can pull you out of the moment if you don't play it narrative? Well, yes. It is designed, specifically, to work with narrative play, and it doesn't pretend otherwise. You can play it whatever way you like, but if you aren't leaning to the narrative side of things... why are you using FATE? We have enough systems out there that there's no call to force the square peg into a round hole. Pick a system that does the job you want to do well!

Elven · Sep 19, 2014

That again is a hugh amount of wrong assumption,

Neonchameleon said:
OK.

Game design 101:

You are going to try to teach me game design?
Its sort of a hobby of mine...

Neonchameleon said:
Every RPG there has ever been can be intrusive. WEG Star Wars isn't mysteriously non-intrusive. Every time you roll a bucket of dice and have to add it up that's intrusive and throws people out of the game (and WEG Star Wars goes high). And Fate is not intrusive if you accept the premises. It's hella-intrusive if you don't. In my experience Fate is easy, very easy, to teach to RPG newbies. But the more D&D experience they have the harder it is. Because you do things differently in Fate from in D&D so, although Fate is far more like their baseline fiction (making it much easier for newbies) people who try to force Fate into a D&D mold struggle.

Did I ever say all games are not intrusive to some degree?
But some games are far more intrusive than others,

And again did I say FATE was hard?, no, I said FATE was intrusive if not played a certain way, (it has nothing to do with premises its the systems mechanics)

And yes you can roll a lot of dice in WEG Star Wars but its far more intuitive than FFGs,

Btw: I've actually played more FATE than D&D,
so, again you are wrong,

You seem to have a D&D fixation (Look, I've only played a couple of games of D&D ever, it did not gel with me, until the current version,
I have tons of 3.5 btw, but i convert everything)

Neonchameleon said:
As for your imagination,

Wait, What?, you are doing it again, when did i mention "imagination"?

Neonchameleon said:
many adults IME have trouble picking up FFG's Star Wars because they are used to other RPGs. This does not apply to kids. Neither is anything approaching hard - but there is a conceptual leap in Edge of Empire where success and luck are separated. This does not come close to a system like D&D - but any kid can imagine it.

So, are you trying to tell me that a child would find FFGs Star Wars easier to play than WEGs Star Wars?
(cuz that would be very wrong)

Again, not D&D,

Neonchameleon said:
So I'd say that an adult with 20 years of D&D experience will pick up WEG's Star Wars faster. A kid? I'm giving the edge to the FFG version. The problems of teaching veteran roleplayers who came up through D&D include unteaching them - and that's why they struggle.

Thats ridiculous,

Again, not D&D

I think you need to understand game design,
Anyone can learn any game given long enough, but to try to claim adults would have trouble because they are stuck in their ways is ridiculous,

(unless you have been playing with a bunch of OAP's (Old Age Pensioners)

Neonchameleon said:
Scare Quotes are a common rhetorical technique.

Ha, wiki is always a solid body of information, (right?)
I use quotation marks to focus attention to key facts or points, (and not in some sort of cynical fashion, maybe its a British English thing (I'm English), but i personal don't did that)

Elven · Sep 19, 2014

Umbran said:
I'd add: FATE is typically easy for newbies, and for folks who play a wide variety of games, so that they've already seen a bunch of different mechanics. If you focus on one game, or one type of game, FATE (or any game with base mechanics really different from what you're used to) can give you a speedbump. That'smore about mental habits than anything else.

And, FATE can pull you out of the moment if you don't play it narrative? Well, yes. It is designed, specifically, to work with narrative play, and it doesn't pretend otherwise. You can play it whatever way you like, but if you aren't leaning to the narrative side of things... why are you using FATE? We have enough systems out there that there's no call to force the square peg into a round hole. Pick a system that does the job you want to do well!

Yes I already know this, but i don't remember it being explicitly said or implied that it should be played "narratively"
(as you may understand not everyone whats to play that way)
And has someone already mentioned, it doesn't do horror/thrillers well, why?, because those types of settings rely heavily on pace and flow to create mood/tension, something FATE will tend to break,

And again, I never said that it was hard to play, (but it may not be everyones cup of tea)

And Yes, I know I have many options, I have a large collection of RPGs,

Neonchameleon · Sep 19, 2014

Elven said:
That again is a hugh amount of wrong assumption,

You mean in the post you just made?

You are going to try to teach me game design?
Its sort of a hobby of mine...

Mine too. And you seem to be making textbook faulty game design assumptions.

Did I ever say all games are not intrusive to some degree?
But some games are far more intrusive than others,

Yup. Edge of Empires is not particularly intrusive once you've stepped over the first hurdle of the weird dice.

And yes you can roll a lot of dice in WEG Star Wars but its far more intuitive than FFGs,

This is one of your faulty assumptions.

Almost no tabletop RPGs in history have ever been inherently intuitive. (Some one-pagers might get there). What makes an RPG intuitive is a mix of two things.

1: How little you need to look up in the course of play and how easily it is to hand. So you can get back to the game.
2: Your familiarity and level of acceptance of the game mechanics in question.

On point 1 the two versions of Star Wars are not meaningfully different. But I've heard people declare both Rifts and Rolemaster to be intuitive and simple. Because it's what they were used to.

Point 2, you seem to be making the claim that "Successful and unlucky" is either something you are unfamiliar with or that it is conceptually difficult to grasp.

You seem to have a D&D fixation (Look, I've only played a couple of games of D&D ever, it did not gel with me, until the current version,

This is a D&D message board. Assuming the baseline on a D&D message board (set up for the launch of 3.0 and that is heavily dominated by D&D) to be D&D is fairly obvious. Were this RPG.net or Storygames or any of a couple of dozen other places I'd make different assumptions.

So, are you trying to tell me that a child would find FFGs Star Wars easier to play than WEGs Star Wars?
(cuz that would be very wrong)

Taught by you, yes it absolutely would be wrong - but note the qualifier.

Thats ridiculous,

Nope.

I think you need to understand game design,
Anyone can learn any game given long enough, but to try to claim adults would have trouble because they are stuck in their ways is ridiculous,

And I think that you've just demonstrated that you don't understand game design and writing games to your target audience. Or some of the reasons for the d20 glut being so big. If you've only done things one way then that way feels right - and every other way feels wrong.

Game design isn't just about the game. It's about the audience for that game. One of my current games is almost abandoned, not because I think it lacks potential or ideas, but because I can't work out the gaming group it would fit. Audience matters and a big part of audience is that audience's assumptions.

(unless you have been playing with a bunch of OAP's (Old Age Pensioners)

One of my regular gaming group is, yes. He's not particularly stuck in his ways.

Ha, wiki is always a solid body of information, (right?)

It's a very good introductory source, crushing most others (including almost all popular books and non-specialist encyclopedias including the Britannica). Not always solid - but a very good place to start.

I use quotation marks to focus attention to key facts or points, (and not in some sort of cynical fashion, maybe its a British English thing (I'm English), but i personal don't did that)

Fair enough. That said, scare quotes are the normal meaning I see of quotes used for emphasis.

Elven · Sep 19, 2014

Neonchameleon said:
You mean in the post you just made?

LOL, okay, I read that far, and I'm not going to waste my time on the rest,

I think you will find you have been wrong on every assumption so far (which i have explained)

I will not waste any more time trying to help you escape your very invalid baseless assumption,

Umbran · Sep 19, 2014

Elven said:
Yes I already know this, but i don't remember it being explicitly said or implied that it should be played "narratively"

The FATE Accelerated SRD itself has an entire section of "Telling Stories Together".

The FATE Core SRD has this to say:

"DRAMA IS BETTER THAN REALISM

In Fate, don’t get too bogged down trying to maintain absolute consistency in the world or adhere to a draconian sense of realism. The game operates by the rules of drama and fiction; use that to your advantage. There should be very few moments in the game where the PCs are free of conflicts or problems to deal with, even if it’d be more “realistic” for them to get a long breather.

When you’re trying to decide what happens, and the answer that makes the most sense is also kind of boring, go with something that’s more exciting than sensible! You can always find a way later on to justify something that doesn’t make immediate sense."

They don't use the word "narratively" specifically, because that's a Forgism you'd not expect most folks to know. But that section, right there, seems pretty explicit, clear, and straightforward. That's not an implication, but a straight up statement that story, narrative, drama, are the key to FATE.

(as you may understand not everyone whats to play that way)

I certainly do understand that. But, for whatever style of game people want to play, they should pick the appropriate tools. You don't pick up a baseball when what you want to play is soccer. If the players are new to RPGs, or if the rules are not clear about what the game is designed to do, we can have some sympathy for folks. But, when you do know your style, and the game is clear about style (as FATE is, demonstrated above), and you play a mismatch, then you lose the right to gripe about how the game performs.

And has someone already mentioned, it doesn't do horror/thrillers well, why?, because those types of settings rely heavily on pace and flow to create mood/tension, something FATE will tend to break,

FATE doesn't do horror well, but I think you get the reasons wrong. FATE gives the GM and players great control over pace and flow. That's not the problem.

However, the base assumption of FATE is that characters are competent (FATE SRD: "What Makes a Good FATE Game: Competence"). The characters are the right people for the job, and they are involved because they have a good chance of being able to resolve it for the better.

This, of course, is contrary to the needs of horror. Fear and dread call for character that are pretty clearly in over their heads, ignorant of what they're up against, and in some major sense fragile and vulnerable. Generally, in horror, the characters are busy responding to the works of the villain/antagonist, in a responsive mode. Meanwhile, FATE calls for them to be proactive.

Elven · Sep 19, 2014

Umbran said:
The FATE Accelerated SRD itself has an entire section of "Telling Stories Together".

The FATE Core SRD has this to say:

"DRAMA IS BETTER THAN REALISM

1) Realism is relative to the story or setting, if i want to play Star Wars in a simulationist way, it stays realistic to the setting,
But not to the real world,

2) It still does not explicitly state "narrative play only"
So to find out otherwise would need trail and error, or word of mouth (internet etc)

Umbran said:
In Fate, don’t get too bogged down trying to maintain absolute consistency in the world or adhere to a draconian sense of realism. The game operates by the rules of drama and fiction; use that to your advantage. There should be very few moments in the game where the PCs are free of conflicts or problems to deal with, even if it’d be more “realistic” for them to get a long breather.

That is relative to the game being played, FATE is a sandbox system, that assumption can not apply to every game/genre
(nobody wants "draconian (well...unless you are playing Dragonlance....) even "Real life" is not draconian)

Umbran said:
When you’re trying to decide what happens, and the answer that makes the most sense is also kind of boring, go with something that’s more exciting than sensible! You can always find a way later on to justify something that doesn’t make immediate sense."

That would not always fly (its an okay formula for say pulp, (gets boring? NINJAS!!!1)
But imagine a game of Star Trek, where well thought out reason/ethics/morales prevail, that kind of "random" would not make sense)
Nor would any thoughtful type game, do you think Conan Doyle or Agatha Christie would use such tactics? (i doubt you would have heard of them if they had, there is a reason why pulps are called pulp)

Umbran said:
They don't use the word "narratively" specifically, because that's a Forgism you'd not expect most folks to know. But that section, right there, seems pretty explicit, clear, and straightforward. That's not an implication, but a straight up statement that story, narrative, drama, are the key to FATE.

BS

Umbran said:
I certainly do understand that. But, for whatever style of game people want to play, they should pick the appropriate tools. You don't pick up a baseball when what you want to play is soccer. If the players are new to RPGs, or if the rules are not clear about what the game is designed to do, we can have some sympathy for folks. But, when you do know your style, and the game is clear about style (as FATE is, demonstrated above), and you play a mismatch, then you lose the right to gripe about how the game performs.

See thats why its BS, you can't claim its the fault of the experienced RPGer, then claim you don't use the term "narrative" because "most folks" wouldn't know it,

You can't have it both ways...

Fact is, most RPGs that are produced are for experienced gamers, and only few aimed at the newbies,
It would take little to preface the game with the statement "FATE supports Narrative play" done n dusted...but it doesn't

Umbran said:
FATE doesn't do horror well, but I think you get the reasons wrong. FATE gives the GM and players great control over pace and flow. That's not the problem.

However, the base assumption of FATE is that characters are competent (FATE SRD: "What Makes a Good FATE Game: Competence"). The characters are the right people for the job, and they are involved because they have a good chance of being able to resolve it for the better.

This, of course, is contrary to the needs of horror. Fear and dread call for character that are pretty clearly in over their heads, ignorant of what they're up against, and in some major sense fragile and vulnerable. Generally, in horror, the characters are busy responding to the works of the villain/antagonist, in a responsive mode. Meanwhile, FATE calls for them to be proactive.

Are you telling me your can't make a vulnerable character? (cuz thats not true, is it?)
And are you telling me that the GM has no options to veto/control the game? (yes he does, right?)

So i refer you to my original statement, this is something neither the players nor GM can change without it being a different game,
And hence the core problem why this system has trouble in running those genre,

is it me? FFG Star Wars

Chimpy

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Neonchameleon

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Umbran

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