Dungeon Crawls - How much is too much?

I am working on a campaign, and I wanted to shoot for more an old-fashioned, role-playing light - puzzle-solving intensive/combat-heavy kind of game.

I was thinking of designing a rather large underground complex (actually, the remains of a long-abandoned temple that has mostly submerged into the swamp, which then leads into a large underground cave complex). At least, that's my thought currently.

Thing is, I can remember back to a game I played recently, where the party was in a tomb, and it was all underground, and we totally loved it for the first couple of game sessions, but I think we spent like 4 sessions in this dungeon, and by the final session, we were so sick of being stuck in this dungeon that all we wanted to do was leave.

So, does anyone have any similar experience to dungeon crawls? How do you keep them interesting, and how much is too much?

My other concern, perhaps saved for a separate thread; perhaps not, is that the PCs will be in a "Isle of Dread" kind of situation - away from all known civilization. And I'm afraid that if I keep them in "hostile" territory for too long, that they're going to end up hating it. For players, being able to get to safety occasional is a great relief, so I'll probably work in friendly monstrous villages, which will still provide a sense of mystery and danger, but if they act diplomatic enough, will provide some sense of ease, and relaxation - at least ocasionally.

get a hold of the first Dragonlance module DL1 and convert that.

Hmm.....

Well the initial thought is that you could make the entrance to the catacombs underground, then make the tomb a maze, with a definite beginning and end. That allows you to put anything that your mind can concieve right into the "dungeon." Then , they wont spend all the time in the tomb, and your boredom and claustrophibia.

Another thought is to make the tomb have multiple openings into the light, but the openings only lead to dens of awaiting animals that feed off of the inhabitants of the caves(and when they see the PC's they attck with savage tactics). But if they slay the enimies, the PC's can rest, or leave the swamp through any means of escape, to returm later

Just a few thoughts

I think that characters need an invested interest in the adventure. It's more of a "know your PCs" sort of thing. So, I like to have a few odd things prepared that can be inserted into the adventure if needed.

I agree with Crothian's comment about making sure the players are properly motivated. You may also want to include areas of sanctuary where the PCs can roleplay a bit. Perhaps an enclave of neutral or even good humanoids the PCs can interact with. I love dungeon delving, but as you say extensive adventurring underground can be monotonous.

While I am currently trying to get away from "crawls," there's nothing wrong with them if folks are having fun.

I think you may be facing the same issue on two fronts, actually. If players feel like progress is being made and not like they are stuck, then they will be less likely to get frustrated. "Stuck" <> "Trapped." The party might be trapped on the island, but aren't stuck if they are making progress -or at least feel like they are- towards their goal (escape, etc.).

In the crawl situation, if there is no clue to how much further there is to go -or what the real objective is- then players might get frustrated. They're worried that if they use their last spell or Rage or whatever, and THEN meet the BBEG, they're toast. So they get frustrated because the don't have the information they want. Now, they aren't supposed to have ALL the information, but a hint or two ("The air is getting warmer as you descend the stairs.", "Really? Cool! That dragon must be close now!") might help now & again. Don't reward stupidity, though. If the party simply ignored the clues and NPCs that could have given them the information, then that's poor playing.

I think your idea of potentially friendly villages is a good one. You can incorporate that concept into the dungeon too by putting a couple "safe rooms" in the complex. Nothing fancy, maybe just a storeroom with a solid door they can spike shut and hole up to rest and re-memorize spells, etc. It's fun to push the party a little, but if they are running on fumes and the end is nowhere in sight, then maybe the ECL of the adventure is a little high for them.

IMHO, YMMV, blahblahblah

Thoughts:

Part of the oppressive feeling comes when characters don't have chances to spend their loot and refresh their resources. If that's your intention, fine, and then make sure they suffer the consequences of starvation, thirst, etc. But if that's not your point then make sure there's a logical way for them to escape back to civilization now and then.

Another thing that might help is to have more than just bad guys. Bad guys, neutrals, and good guys can provide more than just role-playing opportunities -- they can provide information required to pass a "choke point" in the dungeon, they could be a way to get resources replenished, etc.

Finally, it seems to me that a big part of a site-based adventure, especially based in a ruin, would be to develop an interesting back-story. Figuring out the mystery of "what was this place and why did it fall" is always a good subtext to have running alongside the main plot.

never!

Too much is never enough!!

More Dungeon Crawls! But you still have to have contrast, and occasionally going back to town to replenish makes going back to the Dungeon even sweeter!

Arrange short-term goals within the dungeon.

For example, set up three "actions" that they have to perform in the dungeon, and then spend 2-4 sessions on each action. For example...

They know that there is a ghost in the dungeons who is reasonably friendly and can help them defeat the grand villain they are hunting. (They may know this because of someone else who was in the dungeons and failed). They also know that they need a particular artifact that opens up a weakness in the grand villain (or his most powerful minion). The trouble is, they don't know where the ghost and artifact are...

If they go for the ghost first, the powerful minion will make their lives hell in the meantime, but the ghost will both help them and help them find the artifact; if they go for the artifact first, they're likely to wander around lost a lot before they find it, and then they still need to find the ghost.

Let them figure out which they want to do first (and they may change their minds), and then focus the adventure on that goal for a while. When they complete it, focus on the other. And then, you can focus on the final drive to the bottom of the dungeon, where they will face their nemesis.

Breaking it up into distinct goals, each achievable in a reasonable amount of time, will help prevent monotony.

dungeon delving

excelent ideas Seasong!

I would also add "let the players know what type of adventure you are planning. it really sucks to devlope this really cool concept for a city character (and flush it out in character creation) only to discover that the adventure is gonna be on a boat then dungeon delving on a deserted island. give the PC's a chancr to physically and mentally prepair for the adventure and they will be a lot happier.