Nellisir
Hero
This justifies anything. Why bother with musculature or proportion or any of it? It's all make-believe. None of it has value.
"It's not real so it doesn't matter" is fundamentally a dismissive, demeaning argument.
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D&D 5E Inappropriate breasts on female monsters
"It's not real so it doesn't matter" is fundamentally a dismissive, demeaning argument.
Well, this does explain the flumph.
Hussar
Legend
Just to extend my earlier point. If people simply argued that they didn't like dragon boobs and they thought they were stupid, that would be fine. WOTC would be in the position of knowing whichever way it went, it was going to make someone annoyed, so, do a bit of market research and go with the group that's going to give you the most money. Maybe that means no dragonboobs, maybe it means dragonboobs. Whatever.
But, the argument never stops there. Sure, [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] has made her preferences perfectly clear. No problem. But then there's the next step in the argument. "I don't like dragon boobs because they are unrealistic and thus bad and anyone who likes them just doesn't understand science/realism". They're trying to justify their preference by making it sound like it's an objective issue - it's totally unrealistic for reptiles to have boobs, so, let's go with realism. it's more believable.
Of course, that argument ignores the fact that Dragonborn are a created race, specifically called out in the race lore, and made to model humanoids - which do have boobs. IOW, the presence of dragonboobs is actually justified by the background of the race.
Which then leads to the next level in the argument. Since arguing science doesn't work (mostly because it's a very uphill climb to argue that a magical race created by another magical race should follow science) critics then break out the "sexist" argument. It's prurient to add boobs to dragon born. Never minding actually looking at the images in question to learn whether or not the pictures actually are exploitive - are we talking about boob windows in the armour? Chainmail bikinis? Overtly sexualised images worthy of a Marvel comic book? No, we don't actually see any specific examples. Adding boobs is sexist because, well, making a creature look easily identifiably female is apparently sexist.
So, instead of the issue simply being one of preference, in which case, the conversation is largely over, we see critics constantly beating these two drums in order to force their preferences on everyone else.
But, the argument never stops there. Sure, [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] has made her preferences perfectly clear. No problem. But then there's the next step in the argument. "I don't like dragon boobs because they are unrealistic and thus bad and anyone who likes them just doesn't understand science/realism". They're trying to justify their preference by making it sound like it's an objective issue - it's totally unrealistic for reptiles to have boobs, so, let's go with realism. it's more believable.
Of course, that argument ignores the fact that Dragonborn are a created race, specifically called out in the race lore, and made to model humanoids - which do have boobs. IOW, the presence of dragonboobs is actually justified by the background of the race.
Which then leads to the next level in the argument. Since arguing science doesn't work (mostly because it's a very uphill climb to argue that a magical race created by another magical race should follow science) critics then break out the "sexist" argument. It's prurient to add boobs to dragon born. Never minding actually looking at the images in question to learn whether or not the pictures actually are exploitive - are we talking about boob windows in the armour? Chainmail bikinis? Overtly sexualised images worthy of a Marvel comic book? No, we don't actually see any specific examples. Adding boobs is sexist because, well, making a creature look easily identifiably female is apparently sexist.
So, instead of the issue simply being one of preference, in which case, the conversation is largely over, we see critics constantly beating these two drums in order to force their preferences on everyone else.
Hussar
Legend
This would explain Di Terlizzi art. I mean, there's no way that she could lift that sword:
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And this begs the question, why does a snake woman have boobs?
Except, of course, @Elf Witch didn't say that. In fact, that's what the "quote" button is for: so you can "quote" someone instead of putting words in their mouth.
It's ok to have a discussion about aesthetics. There is no need for you to step in and declare the conversation over. People are allowed to talk about stuff they want to talk about, and if you're not interested in the conversation, you're more than welcome to go to another thread.
And people on both sides have been using "sexism" as an argument, which makes sense. Womens' breasts are of course an important part of the conversation about reproduction, gender, and image. There is a lot to be said about this subject, from different viewpoints, and everyone has something valuable to add to this conversation, especially women. There is room to talk about gender, stereotypes, self-image, and whether gender is biological. Yes maybe some of these topics may make people uncomfortable, and there is a lot of baggage when talking about gender. But a respectful, considerate, and open-minded conversation is possible.
Sure, it's about dragon-people. But obviously we're all interested in dragons or we wouldn't play Dungeons and Dragons. A lot of thought goes into make-believe art and writing, and a lot of imagination. It's perfectly ok for people to talk about this subject since it's interesting for a lot of us.
Same reason a mermaid has them.
As a science teacher (reformed) I don't mind it so much. Because there's an un-spoken point here: Why are they using a lizard-form at all? They can us any body form imaginable, but they specifically chose a basically reptilian form. They did it to use a trope. Having made that choice, they set expectations in the audience that it fits the trope - if it looks lizard-like, we expect it to *be* lizard like, and these days, science tells us what lizards are like. When it fails to be lizard-like, it should be for a good reason.
Because it isn't a snake woman, any more than it is a woman snake. It is a chimerical thing - a creature composed of body parts of several different creatures. Our expectation is set that it will have qualities of each of those creatures.
Nitpick: is it begging the question? Traditionally, "Begging the question," does not mean, "begs for the question to be asked." It means, "assumes the conclusion."
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Iosue
Legend
Dismissive, yes. Demeaning, I don't think so. We all have our own particular flying snowmen. It's an inherently subjective thing, and that's cool. But, "Reality!" simply isn't a viable argument here. It's just drawing arbitrary lines in the sand. If the worldbuilding is inconsistent, say, dragonborn females have breasts, but feed their young by regurgitation, that's something to criticize. But if the world is consistent, then it all just comes down to aesthetics, for which no objective argument can be made.
Neonchameleon
Legend
This is a genuine issue where argument on the internet has made me change my perspective. At first I thought they were stupid - but if I was going after stupid I'd go after the flail snail, the flumph, and the beholder. Sexist? I thought so too at first. But I frequently read posts like [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] 's first on this thread - which is both the single most relevant and informative post on this entire thread and appears to have been lost to the discussion, so I'm quoting it in full:
The issue is that there are two competing sexist tropes to be dealt with. The first is pornification; the obvious examples of which are Pneumatic Breasts Everywhere and the boob plate, and the second is erasure.
Pornification is obvious. Ridiculous double D breasts on all female characters, and stripperiffic armour that protects nothing take all of two seconds to explain. Boobplates are a specific form of striperrific armour; a lot of historical male armour had ludicrous codpieces and those are fine. The specific problem with most boob plates is that they guide the sword and the force of the blow into the sternum - which is where you least want it. Form over function (as with Henry VIII's codpiece) is normally fine. Form at the expense of function is not. Small breasts for dragonborn aren't a problem.
The more complex problem is erasure. In this society male is the default gender. We talk about men and (wo)men. We talk about a group of guys of mixed gender - but try calling a group of mixed gender girls and see the response you get outside certain counter-cultural circles. I could go on. But instead I'm going to go to Hollywood. And grab some statistics. 29% of leads and 31% of speaking parts belong to women. Pixar has one female face (and Pixar of all people are known to be progressive). And it's far far worse in mainstream tabletop gaming. What proportion of gamers are female? And when you DM, what proportion of your NPCs are female? I know mine is nowhere near 50% unless I either record their names, am deliberately playing with gender archetypes, or roll a dice. (I've done all three). In Britain and America the default gender is male (even to those of us who try to use the singular they) - so any being without demonstrated gender specific attributes is assumed to be male. Especially in the case of Dragonborn when things like physical strength and being physically imposing (as Dragonborn are) correlate with being male.
Tasteful dragonborn breasts aren't especially pornified. So they aren't seen by most women as a sexism problem that way. They are just something that is. But on the other hand they deal with the female erasure problem.
And I suspect that I've just summarised the sexism argument at Viking Bastard's table - with one of the women arguing about pornification, one about erasure, and the player actually playing a dragonborn giving hers breasts for better identification.
And now I'm going to single out one post on this thread as an example of what not to do. And I'm singling out [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] on the grounds you are normally better than this - there are plenty of other posts I could have chosen.
From everything I can tell here you are speaking for women without actually listening to them. We've already had [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] give one female perspective - that she wants dragonborn with breasts. We've had a second female perspective from [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] say "If it makes female gamers feel more represented then fine. I just know that the female players I know don't really have a passionate view about boobs on monsters." We've had [MENTION=509]Viking Bastard[/MENTION] give an account of a table where things were argued both ways by women. And yet despite the comments of everyone I am aware of on this thread who is a woman or has directly referenced women (again we run into the "default gender is male" thing I was talking about earlier) you've decided what is and isn't sexist.
The issue is that there are two competing sexist tropes to be dealt with. The first is pornification; the obvious examples of which are Pneumatic Breasts Everywhere and the boob plate, and the second is erasure.
Pornification is obvious. Ridiculous double D breasts on all female characters, and stripperiffic armour that protects nothing take all of two seconds to explain. Boobplates are a specific form of striperrific armour; a lot of historical male armour had ludicrous codpieces and those are fine. The specific problem with most boob plates is that they guide the sword and the force of the blow into the sternum - which is where you least want it. Form over function (as with Henry VIII's codpiece) is normally fine. Form at the expense of function is not. Small breasts for dragonborn aren't a problem.
The more complex problem is erasure. In this society male is the default gender. We talk about men and (wo)men. We talk about a group of guys of mixed gender - but try calling a group of mixed gender girls and see the response you get outside certain counter-cultural circles. I could go on. But instead I'm going to go to Hollywood. And grab some statistics. 29% of leads and 31% of speaking parts belong to women. Pixar has one female face (and Pixar of all people are known to be progressive). And it's far far worse in mainstream tabletop gaming. What proportion of gamers are female? And when you DM, what proportion of your NPCs are female? I know mine is nowhere near 50% unless I either record their names, am deliberately playing with gender archetypes, or roll a dice. (I've done all three). In Britain and America the default gender is male (even to those of us who try to use the singular they) - so any being without demonstrated gender specific attributes is assumed to be male. Especially in the case of Dragonborn when things like physical strength and being physically imposing (as Dragonborn are) correlate with being male.
Tasteful dragonborn breasts aren't especially pornified. So they aren't seen by most women as a sexism problem that way. They are just something that is. But on the other hand they deal with the female erasure problem.
And I suspect that I've just summarised the sexism argument at Viking Bastard's table - with one of the women arguing about pornification, one about erasure, and the player actually playing a dragonborn giving hers breasts for better identification.
And now I'm going to single out one post on this thread as an example of what not to do. And I'm singling out [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] on the grounds you are normally better than this - there are plenty of other posts I could have chosen.
From everything I can tell here you are speaking for women without actually listening to them. We've already had [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] give one female perspective - that she wants dragonborn with breasts. We've had a second female perspective from [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] say "If it makes female gamers feel more represented then fine. I just know that the female players I know don't really have a passionate view about boobs on monsters." We've had [MENTION=509]Viking Bastard[/MENTION] give an account of a table where things were argued both ways by women. And yet despite the comments of everyone I am aware of on this thread who is a woman or has directly referenced women (again we run into the "default gender is male" thing I was talking about earlier) you've decided what is and isn't sexist.
Savage Wombat
Hero
That's not the same reason at all. Mermaids need buoyancy.
