D&D 5E Inappropriate breasts on female monsters

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This goes back to my previous arguments about not being realistic when claiming a requirement for realism. If they were really science-oriented then they'd realise that it is entirely reasonable that dragonborn evolved to have breasts in an environment that is wholly different from that on Earth. Drawing parallel assumptions assumes parallel selective pressures which is unrealistic in and of itself.

Well, you have to be careful with the "realistic science" aregument. It can work against you.

Can you have a world in which you get creatures with some things we'd call lizard-like traits, that nurse their young? Sure.

But, would they nurse using organs that are directly analogous in function, placement and appearance to what humans have on Earth? When even on Earth, we have several different systems to do the same thing? One would expect an alien world to come up with different, alien designs to suit the need.

It is also iffy that there'd be only one such species. You'd expect to see an entire branch of the evolutionary tree that have such traits. So, why don't kobolds and dragons and lots of lizardy monsters in D&D have teats? Why are dragonborn the *only* ones?

Yes, you can construct a plausible scenario, but the more specific explanations you have to make to have it work out, the more your scenario violates Occam's Razor. So, for example, when I run fantasy with Dragons, I usually don't just have the big, monstery dragons. Some of the mundane bird-niches are filled with smaller dragonoid critters.

Ultimately, while lizards with teats can be explained, why not just make 'em so no explanation is necessary?
 

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Elderbrain

Guest
Geez, I never thought this would get so heated... All I was trying to say is that on some races, breasts look goofy and out of place. I wasn't trying to attack anyone, much less female gamers. It's just that I always thought, based on their appearance and origin, that Dragonborn were reptiles, not mammals, and hatched from eggs The 4e book "Races and Classes" even said they did! Show a picture of a male Dragonborn to anybody who's never seen one before and ask them, "Does this look like a reptile or a mammal to you?" I guarantee you they're gonna say reptile. (And yes, egg-laying species still have fathers as well as mothers. Having a male parent is not proof you are a mammal!) :hmm:
 

Nellisir

Hero
(And yes, egg-laying species still have fathers as well as mothers. Having a male parent is not proof you are a mammal!) :hmm:
I don't think that was contested. There are some species capable of asexual reproduction, and a smaller subset that's ONLY capable of asexual reproduction, but most of what we'd consider animals (insects, fish, reptiles, birds, mammals) use sexual reproduction. Most plants have male and female parts, and quite a few plant species are divided into males and females. Female holly plants produce the bright red berries (drupes), but require a male plant to do so, so garden centers will stock male and female plants.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
Real life is chock full of things that "don't make sense." The real world is freaking bizarre.

Dragons really aren't "reptiles." Going by the art from most of D&D history, if they were going to be related to ANYTHING real they're probably synapsids or from the same branch, which puts them between mammals and reptiles. There are mammals that lay eggs, and reptiles that give live birth, and billions of wacky combinations have come and gone inside and outside of the known fossil record.

There just isn't even the vaguest hint of "science" behind these arguments. There is at best "what feels right" to specific individuals, which is valid! but not based in anything but opinion and personal history.

As such, the decision comes down to "what is good for the game?"

The game should definitely not be socially irresponsible and alienate a portion of its audience, so dragonborn women becoming a go-to fetish object for the art team is just an absolute no, but that only eliminates lady dragonbornporn all over the place, which wasn't likely to be considered by the art team to begin with, so that's a non-issue here.

The notion that breasts are inherently sexual or objectifying, rather than just a normal thing people need to get over and stop treating as less normal than male anatomy... is not the most popular view in feminism. Discussions are usually more about rampant imbalanced sexualization of women and their body parts rather than the existence of them at all. You can in fact draw breasts without them being for men or for objectification - fantasy just has a really sordid past of failing to do so.

Given that, it comes down to "what will make this better for the largest number of players." There are plenty of people whose "what feels right" is definitely not "dragonboobs," and that is perfectly valid. There is no inherent "wrong" answer to the notion, either way, so it's in itself just as good as the opposite view. Plenty of people are clearly more comfortable with either position. That said, there is some evidence (though I'm not sure on the statistical value) that a significant number of women are more able to identify with a female character that has secondary sex characteristics identifiable by human beings without careful research. I don't know if this is factually correct, but given my discussions with other feminists have often included how tired they are of the human male form being considered the natural "default" while the human female form is an altered version of the male form... I'm inclined to believe it until there's a good scientifically-rigorous study to figure it out either way. Overall, this means that the presence of breasts (and other secondary sexual characteristics, like build) may make it easier for more players to get into the game, particularly those who have historically been treated ...imperfectly... by the fantasy genre and RPG genre.

There are absolutely people of whatever sex or gender who will have a dislike of them for whatever grounds, and those preferences are legitimate. But, overall, I can't really see a reason for WotC to NOT use more human forms here. That said, it may be useful for WotC to kind of hit the middle road and keep dragonborn and the like -subtle- in these features, perhaps so that players can easily mistake it one way or another. That may be a bit cowardly, but it might also keep even more people happy overall.... at least until the "Are those breasts?" threads start up. :erm:
 

Nellisir

Hero
One wonders if dragonborn could be just less overly endowed.

Hrm. I just looked through the race and class section of the 5e Players Handbook. Is there actually a picture of dragonborn with boobs in there? I don't mind a tempest in a teacup, but is there even a teacup?
 

Dire Bare

Legend
One wonders if dragonborn could be just less overly endowed.

Hrm. I just looked through the race and class section of the 5e Players Handbook. Is there actually a picture of dragonborn with boobs in there? I don't mind a tempest in a teacup, but is there even a teacup?

Dragonborn are a type of half-dragon, which goes back quite a ways in D&D. But the specific dragonborn race that debuted in 3E was a race of transformed humanoids (some with boobs), and while I don't remember art pieces depicting stacked girl dragonborn, it would have made sense from the story.

4E dragonborn were an adaptation of the 3E variety, and true-breeding race, not one transmogrified from other species. In 4E art, there is at least one picture of a dragonborn lady with prominent boobs. It's the only one I can remember. 5E dragonborn are essentially the 4E race, and I don't think we've seen stacked dragonborn lady art in 5E yet.

I think we are arguing about one picture. Or at best two or three pictures. IMO, most definitely a tempest in a tiny cup. But hey, what else have we got to talk about, huh?
 

Hussar

Legend
What the hell does edition warring have to do with disliking boobs on reptilian people?!? I can't dislike them because I think it's one pander to immature fanboys too far to put breasts on creatures that hatch from an egg? I can't dislike boobs on draconian humanoids because WotC had a golden opportunity to do something really different with gender differentiation in the premiere new PC race and blew it?

Yes, because this same argument isn't trotted out time and time again on pretty much any topic that the poster doesn't like about an edition. I'm not specifically accusing you of this Bill91, but, it's certainly a common tactic. I don't like edition X because edition X is so unrealistic - look, they put boobs on dragon people!!

I'd buy the argument a lot more if people were a tad more consistent in what they find objectionable. Like was said before there are fifteen other things that don't make a whole lot of sense when it comes to dragon born, but, hey, here's a low hanging fruit target, so, let's jump on. I mean, Draconians, all the way back to 1e, are drawn with tails. Why is that never, ever an issue with the "It's so unrealistic" crowd? In thirty years I've never once heard someone bitch about the fact that lizard folk (or lizard MEN if we want to get right down to it) have tails.

I'd buy the argument, "I don't like dragonboobs because I think they look stupid". That's just a personal opinion and that's fine. But, "I don't like dragonboobs because reptiles can't have boobs, it's unrealistic and spoils my suspension of disbelief" doesn't really pass the sniff test.

As far as blowing it, see below:

Well, you have to be careful with the "realistic science" aregument. It can work against you.

Can you have a world in which you get creatures with some things we'd call lizard-like traits, that nurse their young? Sure.

But, would they nurse using organs that are directly analogous in function, placement and appearance to what humans have on Earth? When even on Earth, we have several different systems to do the same thing? One would expect an alien world to come up with different, alien designs to suit the need.

It is also iffy that there'd be only one such species. You'd expect to see an entire branch of the evolutionary tree that have such traits. So, why don't kobolds and dragons and lots of lizardy monsters in D&D have teats? Why are dragonborn the *only* ones?

Yes, you can construct a plausible scenario, but the more specific explanations you have to make to have it work out, the more your scenario violates Occam's Razor. So, for example, when I run fantasy with Dragons, I usually don't just have the big, monstery dragons. Some of the mundane bird-niches are filled with smaller dragonoid critters.

Ultimately, while lizards with teats can be explained, why not just make 'em so no explanation is necessary?

But, the reason has already been answered. The market research they did told them that adding boobs to dragon born was better received by the audience. THAT'S why they did it. They actually took the time to research this and their research told them that boobs was the way to go. So, no, leaving them off would not make sense given that you spent money to find out which version people like better.

What they didn't know was that things like this would become rallying flags for edition warring and blown WAY out of proportion to the point where we're still seeing people bitch about it two years after the game has stopped being published.

I mean, has anyone seen a 5e pic of a dragon born with boobs? I don't have the books, so, I'm honestly asking here. Did you folks bitch long and loud enough and won? If so, then why are you continuing to flog the dead equine?
 


Dire Bare

Legend
As a science teacher, the argument that dragonborn should not have boobs because science makes me chuckle. Misunderstanding and misapplication of science to fantasy. Dragons are not lizards, dragonborn are not dragons or lizards (or reptiles). Neither option A (lady dragonborn with boobs) or option B (lady dragonborn without boobs) makes more or less sense from a scientific standpoint. You just look silly when you argue, "Boobs bad, because Science!" (insert "realism" for "science" at any time)

Arguing that lady dragonborn should or should not have boobs because sexism is also very silly. Boobs on fantasy races CAN be portrayed sexist, but is not inherently so. From this thread alone it's obvious that some women find dragon bewbs silly, and others find them identifying. Lady dragonborn boobs are only sexist if you presume to speak for all women. Which is sexist (unless you are a woman, then I'm not sure what it would be, other than exclusionary).

It's also obvious (to me, at least) that a fictional, anthropomorphic race of dragon people (hybrid of humans and dragons), from a story perspective, can be written to not have boobs, or to have them (or to have udders or whatnot) and make perfect sense. We've seen several examples in this thread alone. Even if you accept that dragons are reptiles, and dragonborn are also reptiles . . . why does a human-dragon hybrid race that leans towards the human (with the ladies having boobs) "make no sense"?

Not saying that you have to accept or love dragon boobs, but to make such an unholy fuss over it? Fantasy art definitely has a history of depicting women in a submissive and overly sexual manner, and while we are moving away from that era, we have not truly left it behind yet. But that doesn't make the dragonbewbs "controversy" any less silly or offbase . . . IMO, of course.
 

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