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D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Joe Liker

First Post
DMs should supply 'secret information' to the players who successfully made their appropriate checks.
This. It's the best compromise for dealing with player/character stat mismatch.

If the character is smart or charismatic, the player should be granted more leeway in the challenge. This can take the form of extra hints for puzzles or investigations, or NPCs giving more attention or benefit of the doubt when a player is less outspoken than he could be or even borderline rude in a social situation.

It's all well and good to say you don't judge your friends' intelligence levels, but for the sake of the game, it might be best just to assume they are all well below average and use the above guideline for everyone.
 

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Lerysh

First Post
The players are both players AND viewers. They get to be part of the story, but that doesn't mean they don't also view the story...just through the eyes of their characters. The adventure in question is the story about a bunch of Red Wizards who are trying to conquer the Sword Coast and the heroes that try to stop them. It happens in a couple of acts. The first act, the PCs get some clues as to what is going on but are unlikely to be able to piece them together, then in Act 2 they stop some goblins who took over a town, then somewhere in act 3 or 4 the Succubus along with a bunch of other people attack the PCs and try to frame them for murder. Which should give them enough information to figure out why the guard did the things he did. Especially because her human cover was seen with the guard all over the place.

If they are viewers then they need to actually VIEW the content for it to be foreshadowing. As you described it, it sounds more like an impossible challenge followed by a mandatory hook requiring the players to ignore said challenge. If you want to foreshadow a Red Wizard plot involving succubus minions and dominated town guards you need to have at least one of those things hinted at. Dead town guard due to suicide does not hint at any of those things. Before whisking them away from the plot point, why not have rumors of Red Wizards come up in their investigation, and of a particular tattoo he has (of the conjuration school I assume) that can be determined by some Intellegence (Arcana) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks. They may not find out why the guard killed himself, but they find out something is definitely up.
 

Lerysh

First Post
how could a test of the players ever NOT be metagameing... I mean it is by default out of game and not for the characters... it would be like saying "Ok, now instead of rolling Jump, I am setting up this bar you have to jump over out of game..."


Please in someway address why out of game Cha or Int can be used but not out of game Dex or Str or SPeed.

DM"Well I like to test players... so I have this obstacle course set up in the back yard!"

This, right here. This is the main reason why characters with high CHA should be able to rely on the roll to succeed at the Charisma (Persuasion) test even if their roleplaying is a bit flat. Under the new 5e rules you could give advantage for good RP and confer disadvantage for bad RP. You can even not check for really good RP and sound reasoning, but under no circumstances should that character not be able to attempt something that is in character for them only because it's out of character or difficult for the person playing them.
 

Rod Staffwand

aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
I've long ago decided that "Thou Shalt Play Thine PC's Mental Attributes Appropriately" commandment is a can of worms best left closed. It leads to nothing but arguments about 95% of the time. The attributes might flavor the player's roleplaying, but shouldn't affect actual decision-making unless the player decides they should.

Otherwise, you're left fumble about in a gray area of gut feelings, assumptions and biases with no clear guidance whatsoever. There's too much uncertainty in it to do something as intrusive as take decision-making away from a player (which is the only power they have in the game). The punishment is far worse than the crime.

Taken to the extreme, you get things like:

"I'm sorry, you're character is too stupid to know what a sphere of annihilation is. Also, he's too stupid to know not to touch it. You touch it. Roll up a new character."

"Your Intelligence 22 wizard knows that he shouldn't move to that space and cast magic missile. What he should do is move here to avoid the AoO, cast fireball with his 5th level slot, center it on this space here so he can get these 7 guys in the burst."

Puzzles that challenge players rather than characters have always been a part of D&D. And, like any aspect of the game, they appeal to some players and not to others. I really like them as both a player and a DM. I use a lot of "puzzle monsters" that can only be defeated in a certain way and generally reward creative or fun solutions more than a flat out roll-fest. Why? Because I want my games to be filled with creativity and fun rather than just dice rolling.

To balance the influence of player vs. character abilities, I typically use the previously stated method of have character abilities generate clues or provide insight into the challenge, with the final decision resting with the player. It also helps to be consistent with the level of input you are expecting from your players. If "I search the room" is good enough for the past three adventures, you shouldn't suddenly require a "I search under the bed" out of the blue.
 

smerwin29

Reluctant Time Traveler
I would love to hear more feedback about the entire adventure, and this one "puzzle" adventure in particular, from people who read/DMed/played the adventure. Writing a puzzle adventure is challenging, and the 30 or so tables I have run it at have enjoyed it. I'm sure I will have to write similar scenes in upcoming adventures, so I would love to hear how to do it better without making it too easy.

Thanks!
 

Uchawi

First Post
I don't think you can separate the two, but you can come down hard or soft, depending on the dice roll depending on the character makeup versus the player. That way the dice rolls are still fair (even with meta game knowledge), but you get to decide as a DM if a character/player deserves a break. It is a passive approach versus in your face. You can still get interesting results, as the DM is more aware of what twists will affect future encounters. From the player perspective ignorance is bliss.
 

I talked to my players tonight and they brought up a problem with the mod I didn't think of... shouldn't everyone run away whent he first person dies? why is the woman with the flower still there? I mean maybe a second target... but if you saw someone randomly (and atleast at first that is what it appears) get electrocuted why not scatter?
 

Hussar

Legend
Who cares? Is Larry having fun? If so, let him. Why be a "character knowledge" police officer as the DM?

Maybe super dumb Int 8 PCs are autistic and savant at the same time. The PC can do puzzles like crazy, but cannot figure out how to use a fork.

Why is the reverse not also true? If Larry is having fun relying on his character's stats to see him through, why do you care? Why be a character knowlege police officer as a DM?
 

Why is the reverse not also true? If Larry is having fun relying on his character's stats to see him through, why do you care? Why be a character knowlege police officer as a DM?
If you're playing football and you're not running during the game because you're "having fun" that way, you'll be expelled from the team pretty quickly. Players making at least a minimal effort to play their characters is not only what RPGs are about, it also makes the game more fun for everyone.
 

pemerton

Legend
why are the players going to talk to a guy eating soup? Why are they going to talk to a girl with flowers in her hair? Why does the person with the bow draw their attention? Is it just a matter of 'these people are in the room, go talk to them'? That's the sort of no-direction sandboxy claptrap I hate in a story, where's the hook? Why should I talk to these people? Why do I have reason to believe they know anything at all about the artifact I'm searching for? Because they're in the same inn as me? That's terrible associative reasoning, aka: logical fallacy.
yes, the adventure is to accomplish the goal assigned to you in exchange for money. Which is the motivator of 80% of adventurers in games I play in(the motivator for the other 20% is doing good and helping people, which this adventure also has covered). The other motivator is to see a puzzle solved and see the plot thread resolved.

<snip>

They care because they are being paid to care and because if they figure it out they can save people's lives. Some of them do it because it will make them more famous. Some do it because they want to prove they are better at solving puzzles than other people. Some do it for the mystery. Some do it because their friends want to do it and they'll go along with their friend's goals.

<snip>

They all follow the same basic formula:

NPC comes up to the PC and asks them to do something for them. Sometimes for money, sometimes out of the goodness of their hearts. The PCs agree and accomplish the mission by fighting monsters, solving puzzles, and defeating obstacles. Then they get paid. Sometimes by someone else other than the original employer.

Whether that mission is "Go into that hole and save my family from the goblins who captured them" or "Find the evil magic item in this room".
I think it's fairly clear why the characters should talk to the people in the room: because the players know that this is the scenario into which the GM has framed their PCs. In other words, the motivation is almost entirely metagame - the players know that they're playing a game, and to progress the game they will have to talk to these people the GM has described to them.

The in-character motivations that are meant to throw a figleaf over the metagame motivation - the offer of pay, or acclaim, or doing good - seem so feeble to me that the fig-leaf may as well not be there. Especially if earning money, or gaining acclaim, or doing good has no impact on the content of the campaign, and makes no difference to how the game unfolds in the future.

Just speaking for myself, this is an approach to RPGing that has almost no appeal. In the context of the soup module, for instance, I would expect at least one of the PCs to have a genuine reason to care about the forest, or perhaps about one of the NPCs.

Actions are just one part of making a character(or characterization). In order to be a well rounded character we need to see their description, get a glimpse at their thoughts and see how they react in a variety of situations.
Christopher Kubasik isn't giving a definition of characterisation taken from Wikipedia. He's not describing literary criticism - he's engaging in it! He's putting forward a view of what makes for compelling character, in drama and in RPG play.

Especially in an RPG, the inner life of the PCs is not easily accessible to the audience (ie the other players), because there is no narration and, generally, little or no soliloquy. It is by declaring actions that a player shows what his/her PC is moved by.

If a character needs nothing but actions then most D&D characters would be defined as 90% identical to one another:

"I attack." "I search." "I attack."

In fact, literally, the most important different between one fighter and another fighter is that one likes wine and fine tobacco and another likes riding horses and reading books about cowboys.
You are describing here an approach to RPGing that has very limited appeal to me.

In the last Rolemaster campaign I ran, two of the PCs were samurai, wielding katana and wakazashi (anachronistic but fun), wearing heavy armour, etc. One did study the history of swords, while the other did not, but this came out not through esoteric monologues but because this character made swords, appraised swords, etc. Being a crafter, a builder and also a giver (whereas the other fighter was a taker) was part of his character expressed through his actions over the course of the campaign.

Even if we focus just on attacking, there are different ways of attacking: different targets to choose, for instance, and - at least in some RPG systems, including some versions of D&D - choices to be made between recklessness, caution etc. Different things to fight for.

And there are different things to search for, too.

Without playing this adventure, I would have no idea that the character(played by the player I mentioned in the original post) had any motivation other than killing monsters and searching for treasure. He hit on the female elf ranger with the purple bow during the adventure. Which means he is, at the very least, attracted to woman as well.
I don't see this as a counterexample to the idea that, in RPGing, character is best expressed through action.

since D&D is a ensemble game, it's very difficult for individual goals to be pursued much during an adventure without splitting the party or forcing the other party members to put their own personal goals on hold to pursue yours.
I don't agree. It just requires a different approach to adventure design and adjudication from the one that seems to be presupposed in the adventures you describe.
 

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