How would you make demons really dark?

Morrus said:

At the risk of infuriating people back in the 1980s, I wonder how you would go about making demons/devils what-have-you really dark and scary in your horror-themed games?

Click to expand...

Same thing you do with generating fear in a horror game - find out the things that scare/freak out your players and then push those buttons. And keep pushing them until you don't have any players left - because if you do, your demons are insufficiently dark.

Didn't we have a very similar thread a while ago?

My personal favorite take on demons are the 'horrors' of Earthdawn. They're all but unbeatable for low-mid parties and have a corrupting influence. The whole RPG revolves around the horrors' power to 'mark' individuals, allowing them to use a variety of powers on them from great distances. They generally don't simply possess their victims but try to encourage them to engage in evil activities on their own, ofen by carefully orchestrating situations that present moral dilemmas. Earthdawn horrors feed on (dark) emotions and some of them have destroyed entire Caers (hermetically sealed underground communities used to protect people from the horrors) they managed to subvert.

I'm also particular to the Ars Magica take on demons, since it's very true to its sources, i.e. the holy books of the big real-world religions (primarily Christian). Their single purpose of existence is to cause people to sin which can be achieved by using their powers of Psychomachia (basically causing characters to make checks vs. their personality traits to avoid sinful behaviour). In order to 'condemn their souls' they must bring them to act sinfully of their own volition, though. Specific methods to achieve this vary by the type of demon and their power. Generally the higher their power, the more convoluted and long-term their plans are and the larger the groups they focus on.

You have to make the evil acts common place. Once you have defined what is evil in your games and the one that the demon does, you then place them as every day happenings in the life of the demon.

Janx said:

Having just finished Wolfenstein: The New Order, I'd say that's pretty dark. Nazis won.

In a Modern setting, imagine if the Demons were actually in control. Corporations are people because the Demons are behind the Corporations and have maneuvered things to empower them.

Corporations really are soul sucking workplaces.

The Oil Companies really do want to pollute the world and block the sun with the smog clouds.

Privatization of prisons is putting souls into demon hands to torture.

Corporate Jingles are the original meme, and are designed to infect minds to bend them to be positively disposed toward a corporate brand. modern memes are the same concept with subliminal programming built in. YouTube is working to infect every mind in the world.

Pepsi and Coca Cola are seeking to pursue Gluttony by enticing everyone to over indulge. Even the diet drinks aren't (hence why you only see fat people drinking diet pop).

Not to get actually political here, just showing how far the Demonic Corporate Conspiracy could be taken.

Click to expand...

Have you ever read "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman?

MasterTrancer said:

Have you ever read "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman?

Click to expand...

Nope.

Back to the OP, an interesting take on "scary" baddies is found in WHFRP: the demons (and not just them) are quite strong, but phisically defeating them, when it's attainable, often leaves a stain on the PCs, either in the form of corruption, disease, long-lasting debilitating wounds (crits).

Ultimately I think that the dark aspect is the one of hopelessness, as someone already brilliantly pointed out: simply put, you can't win; maybe you can divert the losses (e.g.: you sacrifice youself not to save a sibling, but to give her one more chance to be saved) but the victory is simply ultimately unattainable.

Janx said:

Nope.

Click to expand...

Then I suggest strongly you do There are some ideas similar to the ones you were exposing, but with a slight twist...

...and just more light-hearted in tone than what is being depicted in this thread

Morrus - How do you define "dark?" What movies have you seen that you would consider to be really "dark?"

I think that this is a question a lot of DM's struggle with, myself included. A couple of relevant and semi-coherent thoughts I had while considering this.

1) It is different for each group. One person's dark and disturbing is another person's nap time. You know what I find to be one of the creepiest and most terrifying horror movies? White Noise. I think I have met 3 people who don't roll their eyes when they hear that. So I think the best way to do this is to actually ask "What would my players' consider dark and scary?"

2) I actually experienced some genuine fear from the players a couple of sessions ago. It was when Cyanwrath and his guard completely shrugged off their spell and proceeded to drop half the party on their first turn. 5th is still fairly new for us, and not everyone has the balance down. Finding out that you are completely outmatched in an encounter you are expected to win, that your new character is unconscious, the character you recently made with all the shiny new bells and whistles, that you couldn't wait to level up just one more time, OH GOD NO HE'S TOO YOUNG TO DIE! lol. The moment the fighter pointed out that cyanwrath had to be about twice the parties level to use the abilities he had as a fighter, oh yeah, there was fear.

3) They should make the setting darker. If there is a fiend on the loose, the world should feel it. The rumors have escaped, townspeople are paranoid. Merchants are avoiding the place, limiting food, weapon repairs, healing potions. Everyone knows the whole "go after the pc's loved one" angle. So up the ante. The PC's spouse isn't killed or captured. They are mind controlled. Oh god no, that isn't mind control. They signed that pact WILLINGLY. Why? Because they were tired of waiting up at night to see if the player came home. They had to do something, anything, to help. It all seemed so reasonable at first. It wasn't till it was far too late that they realized they had made an actual deal with the devil. And they aren't mindless. They are completely aware of what they are doing. You just don't understand. They just HAVE to stop you from going to that ball. It's, like the feeling of starvation, or a drug addict, or love. Please don't go. Stay with me. Please.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say here is, butcher some sacred cows. Be willing to let a mainstay of the campaign be destroyed or changed. Let them know that this time it matters. This isn't just a dungeon crawl. It's not some random shopkeeper that got slaughtered. It's the PC's contact that ran the homeless shelter. The one that single handedly kept it from closing. So now there are homeless people wandering around at night, cold, hungry, desperate. AND your ear to the streets is gone.

I know that last bit was like Kindergarten Performance Theater, but I hope it gets across what I was trying to say.