D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

Quickleaf · Dec 15, 2014

I have a scenario where a group of bad guys take a two-pronged approach: most of the bad guys directly confront the party & a few lurk in the woods very well hidden (their Stealth checks beat all the PCs' passive Perceptions) to act as snipers. My thinking is that this means the PCs are surprised. However, after reading the rules I am not sure...

PHB said:
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

So, being "surprised" by the couple guys in the woods means that the PCs can't move or take actions on their first turn of combat, even against the obvious bad guys right in front of them? Is that right?

I guess I'm having trouble grasping the logic behind this, where editions I'm used to made surprise a bonus attack for those who surprised their enemy. I'm not sure how to interpret 5e's surprise rules in the narrative of my situation.

Thanks for any help in advance

the Jester · Dec 15, 2014

I would treat it, in this case, as "those with surprise get a free round of actions".

Thus, the archers get a surprise round, let's call it round 0; then everyone else starts going on round 1.

Mistwell · Dec 15, 2014

Quickleaf said:
I have a scenario where a group of bad guys take a two-pronged approach: most of the bad guys directly confront the party & a few lurk in the woods very well hidden (their Stealth checks beat all the PCs' passive Perceptions) to act as snipers. My thinking is that this means the PCs are surprised.

Conceptually it's better to think of this as two combats, which converge into one combat eventually. So the direct foes and the PCs have a combat with no surprise (#1) - then the snipers and the PCs have another combat with surprise (#2). After the first round of each, they combine into one combat.

So for #2, give the snipers a round of attacking with no round for the PCs, and no reactions during that round either. Thereafter, it's as normal for a non-surprise combat.

mach1.9pants · Dec 15, 2014

...like this

sorry

If the archers get to fire before the PC's see the rest of the enemies, then they get surprise. If the PC's are aware of the other combatants, there is no surprise, the archers just get advantage for effectively being invisible IMO

Hriston · Dec 15, 2014

I would say that a new encounter begins when the party is surprised by the ambushers, and I would give both the ambushers and their allies the ability to take actions (including attacks) and move on the surprise round while the party is surprised. If you only give the ambushers an extra attack, and not their allies, then you may as well just add them into the present initiative order, which negates the effect of surprise.

guachi · Dec 15, 2014

Quickleaf said:
I have a scenario where a group of bad guys take a two-pronged approach: most of the bad guys directly confront the party & a few lurk in the woods very well hidden (their Stealth checks beat all the PCs' passive Perceptions) to act as snipers. My thinking is that this means the PCs are surprised. However, after reading the rules I am not sure...

So, being "surprised" by the couple guys in the woods means that the PCs can't move or take actions on their first turn of combat, even against the obvious bad guys right in front of them? Is that right?

I guess I'm having trouble grasping the logic behind this, where editions I'm used to made surprise a bonus attack for those who surprised their enemy. I'm not sure how to interpret 5e's surprise rules in the narrative of my situation.

Thanks for any help in advance

If the characters are confronted with an obviously hostile situation by the guys directly in front of them, then they can't be surprised from a mechanical standpoint by the guys in front of them or in the woods. The archers in the woods, however, will have advantage on their first attack as they are hidden.

If however, they are confronted first by the archers and the guys in the road are not there yet, then the players are surprised.

Quickleaf · Dec 15, 2014

guachi said:
If the characters are confronted with an obviously hostile situation by the guys directly in front of them, then they can't be surprised from a mechanical standpoint by the guys in front of them or in the woods. The archers in the woods, however, will have advantage on their first attack as they are hidden.

If however, they are confronted first by the archers and the guys in the road are not there yet, then the players are surprised.

Haha, a diversity of viewpoints already! And here I was thinking my example would have a simple cut-and-dried answer

Maybe the DMG covers an example like this somewhere? Or provides illumination on adjudicating surprise in this edition?

To clarify: The situation is there are a group of men (the main group of bad guys) approaching the PCs with a demand. They are not overtly hostile, but there is threat implied if the PCs decide to blatantly refuse, mouth off, draw weapons, etc. Then there are a couple men (still part of the bad guys, just broken off from the main group) very well hidden in the woods, at least to begin with. Since they've coordinated this beforehand, both groups of men are on the scene at the same time.

Quickleaf · Dec 15, 2014

the Jester said:
I would treat it, in this case, as "those with surprise get a free round of actions".

Thus, the archers get a surprise round, let's call it round 0; then everyone else starts going on round 1.

That was my instinct too, and then I actually bothered to read the surprise rules and was like "wait a minute, this is not what I expected at all!"

I have no problem breaking the rules in the service of the narrative; I just want to make sure I understand the spirit of the surprise rules first before I go changing things up, and accidentally goof things up. I've noticed in 5e lots of things that at first glance seem like a WTF, but in actual play work quite well, so I'm withholding judgment for now.

Riley37 · Dec 15, 2014

the Jester said:
I would treat it, in this case, as "those with surprise get a free round of actions".

Thus, the archers get a surprise round, let's call it round 0; then everyone else starts going on round 1.

Reasonable, assuming that the encounter starts as a combat.

Situational questions: Does the main force jump out from behind trees and charge, trying to surprise the PCs? Or does it approach openly and demand tribute? Do the archers open fire while the main force charges?

If I were bandits hoping to force a surrender, then I'd probably ask for tribute, and if the travelers refuse, the archers shoot, while the main force holds its ground. If the travelers turn to search woods for archers, THEN the main force charges them. If the travelers don't move, fine, the archers empty their quivers into travelers. If the travelers charge the main force, then the main force awaits the charge (spear butts braced into the ground and all that), while the archers are now shooting at the travelers from behind (shields no longer add to AC).

This works even better if the bandits have placed caltrops on the road, to hamper travelers charging the main force. "You want to travel this road? For only 100 GP, we'll remove these caltrops from your path."

Hriston · Dec 15, 2014

There's an example of exactly this type of situation in one of the recent Acquisitions Inc. games. The PCs were confronted by a group of Dragon Cultists and began fighting with them. Meanwhile several wyverns hid themselves around the perimeter of the area. Chris Perkins, the DM, gave the PCs the benefit of a Perception check rather than just going with the passive score, but they all failed their rolls anyway. So what happened when the wyverns attacked was that the PCs were surprised, and not only did the wyverns get an "extra attack" on the surprise round (i.e. the beginning of a new encounter), but the cultists all got to attack too while the PCs just stood there because they were surprised. This resulted in a pretty devastating defeat for Acquisitions Inc. by the way.

D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

Quickleaf

Legend

the Jester

Legend

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

mach1.9pants

Hero

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

guachi

Hero

Quickleaf

Legend

Quickleaf

Legend

Riley37

First Post

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

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