Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I guess that's why surprise can only happen on the first round of combat.
D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?
I guess that's why surprise can only happen on the first round of combat.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Here's a quote from the Basic Rules: "The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
So the snipers are hiding and the PCs don't notice them. That means that when hostilities commence between the PCs and the other group, of which the snipers are a part, they are surprised.
"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends." Notice that this is not limited to the particular creature who surprised you, but is a general prohibition on all actions. I like, however, that the first thing the rules say about this is that it is up to the DM to determine.
So the snipers are hiding and the PCs don't notice them. That means that when hostilities commence between the PCs and the other group, of which the snipers are a part, they are surprised.
"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends." Notice that this is not limited to the particular creature who surprised you, but is a general prohibition on all actions. I like, however, that the first thing the rules say about this is that it is up to the DM to determine.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
This thread is making it clear to me that an unnoticed threat can only surprise in the first round, meaning that if it remains hidden past the first round, or even past the initiative count of one creature or another, it does not surprise anyone already taking actions in the context of a melee.
This is where DM adjudication comes in, because you have to ask yourself why, once combat has commenced or is in the process of commencing, would a creature remain hidden when it means losing the "element of surprise" that its successful stealth check has given it, perhaps to attack with advantage at a later time, similar to a rogue's sneak attack?
If the snipers had decided to wait until after the first round to reveal themselves by attacking they would no longer be able to surprise the PCs, but using this as motivation for the timing of their attack is metagaming on the DM's part. So its really up to the DM to decide on the most likely course of action and then apply the rules to the situation that ensues.
This is where DM adjudication comes in, because you have to ask yourself why, once combat has commenced or is in the process of commencing, would a creature remain hidden when it means losing the "element of surprise" that its successful stealth check has given it, perhaps to attack with advantage at a later time, similar to a rogue's sneak attack?
If the snipers had decided to wait until after the first round to reveal themselves by attacking they would no longer be able to surprise the PCs, but using this as motivation for the timing of their attack is metagaming on the DM's part. So its really up to the DM to decide on the most likely course of action and then apply the rules to the situation that ensues.
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Pickles JG
First Post
Either giving the snipers a free first round ie everyone else is surprised if they initiate the fight or giving them just a shot with advantage if the other bandits initiate the fight work fine.
The Perkins method makes surprise a bit too strong for the other bandits and could be a dangerous precedent (not that I am bound by precedent when I DM). It essentially made the first round initiative roll worth double.
(In the playtest they seemed to go back & forth on how surprise should work. This version with a whole free round of action but no bonuses seems simplest while not making surprise too swingy, but still very worthwhile))
The Perkins method makes surprise a bit too strong for the other bandits and could be a dangerous precedent (not that I am bound by precedent when I DM). It essentially made the first round initiative roll worth double.
(In the playtest they seemed to go back & forth on how surprise should work. This version with a whole free round of action but no bonuses seems simplest while not making surprise too swingy, but still very worthwhile))
Well, they don't differentiate between various situations. Perhaps we'll come up with houserules which then become popular among DMs. What's the most useful TRPG rules, governing surprise, that you've seen or played?
There is a military saying: "Surprise is an event which happens in the mind of a commander."
A distinction I would find useful:
(A) Vrax is picking berries in a forest. Vrax hears the twang of a bow. Vrax has a split second to take a Reaction, such as drop prone or cast Shield. (Maybe there's an arrow moving towards Vrax; maybe an archer is shooting at something else; all Vrax knows, in that moment, is that SOMETHING went "twang".) Vrax doesn't get an action such as Dash or Dodge, nor does she have time to ready a weapon or raise her shield. If she was indeed the target of an arrow, then the archer makes Attack Roll, with Advantage, against Vrax's AC, which includes Vrax's DEX modifier.
After that is resolved, roll Initiative.
(B) Vrax is picking berries in a forest. Vrax *doesn't* hear the twang of a bow. Maybe the bow was fired from 300' away, and Vrax didn't hear it; or maybe the attacker silently threw a javelin; or maybe the attacker creeps up from behind, with a silver hammer; in any case, Vrax is still happily picking berries at the moment the attack arrives. In that situation, the attacker rolls with Advantage, and Vrax does NOT get a Reaction. In my personal houserules, Vrax's AC is calculated as if her DEX were 0. Vrax's first clue that she's in combat, is either "ow, something hit me!" or "hey, something went right past me, was that an arrow, or maybe a javelin?".
(C) Vrax is moving carefully through the forest, shield raised in one hand, her trusty +3 rock in the other. Bandits have spotted her, and are waiting for her to get closer; she has not spotted the bandits. When she's 20' away, two of them jump out from behind trees, charge her, and attack with swords, while the third bandit casts Magic Missile.
In this situation, the bandits should get SOME benefit from surprise, because they spotted her and chose the moment to attack, rather than vice versa. But this is a MUCH smaller case of surprise than A or B. Maybe the bandits automatically have Initiative for this round, and they engage her and attack, but then she gets her normal action, possible bonus action, interact with object, etc.; and she can use Reaction to cast Counterspell against the magic missile, or Cutting Words against the bandit's sword attack. After all that, then they roll Initiative and start a new round.
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Woas
First Post
The way I would handle a situation like this is by first comparing the stealth checks vs passive wisdom. Assuming all archers remain unnoticed, I would make attack rolls (with advantage) for the archers and explain to the characters that a number of arrows fly from an unseen assailant. Basically I wouldn't tell the players where the archers are yet, effectively giving them that free surprise round. Then having rolled initiative for the archers, I'd insert them into the current order and 'reveal' them to the players after a full round so they become valid targets.
This is most likely how I'm going to run with surprise, and same applies for the PCs when they try to ambush, etc, ofc.
Disregard ambushers and look at what the situation is when facing the (potential) threat:
"clearly hostile" - no surprise as they're ready for combat.*
"could be hostile" - give perception checks to detect ambushers.
"seems non-hostile" - only passive perception used against ambushers.
Characters that detect ANY of the ambushers are not surprised (though some may still be hidden attackers for them).
*If the hostile party is too far away for the situation to call for an initiative roll, use "could be hostile" instead. However, if the situation would call for an initiative roll before the ambushers have made their attack, revert back to "clearly hostile".
Disregard ambushers and look at what the situation is when facing the (potential) threat:
"clearly hostile" - no surprise as they're ready for combat.*
"could be hostile" - give perception checks to detect ambushers.
"seems non-hostile" - only passive perception used against ambushers.
Characters that detect ANY of the ambushers are not surprised (though some may still be hidden attackers for them).
*If the hostile party is too far away for the situation to call for an initiative roll, use "could be hostile" instead. However, if the situation would call for an initiative roll before the ambushers have made their attack, revert back to "clearly hostile".
Pickles JG
First Post
a) No surprise but opponent won initiative & got to shoot from hiding
b) Surprise round* & hidden attacker
c) Surprise round* but not hidden attackers
*strictly PCs surprised in the first round.
B & C imply some sort of failed perception check/successful stealth check while the one is A is fudged a bit - as success would presumably unhide the hidden guy. Seems like a reasonable fudge though. (or it's a feat/class ability as reacting fast enough to a shot might be something out of the skill set of normal folk).
The house rules make surprise super effective. Probably realistic but can result in the game becoming all about getting surprise & a free round is good enough when fights only last 3 or so rounds.
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Warmaster Horus
Explorer
So if the Skirmishing Force A has already engaged the heroes, I don't have any hijinx occur with the initiative when the Sniper Force B opens up. Battle has been joined, as it were. The Snipers would get advantage and any benefits from surprise they might normally accrue to hit and damage from firing from hiding.
