D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think my way of handling this would be pretty close to Celtavian's, but I arrive at my answer in a slightly different logical method.

If the PC's are confronted by a group of baddies, with more in the woods hiding, they'll be on alert pretty much immediately. Depending on the situation I may give them perception rolls to see the hidden archers.

Even though initiative has yet to be rolled, we are for all intents and purposes already in combat, and I would handle things as if we were. I wouldn't necessarily say so, but in my games I've always handled this sort of situation in this way so it wouldn't be too unusual. Role-playing can happen without any rules being invoked but I'd go around the table and ask each player what action they are taking, if any, and limit them to a rounds worth at a time.

At the point in which the archers attack, mechanically speaking I would say that they are readying an attack (or whatever 5e calls it) for the end of that round. In 5e, IIRC, readying in this manner doesn't affect your actual initiative roll. Attacks would be made with advantage so long as the archers were in fact still hidden. If a PC had noticed them, I wouldn't give advantage against that PC, and might give that PC a perception check to notice the attack soon enough to allow him to warn the other PC's, in which case I'd still have all the archers attack at once, but without advantage.

Then, the next round starts, and combat progresses as normal. Initiative gets rolled, and the archers might go again before the PC's depending on that.

 

[Quickleaf]

It seems like a lot of people on this thread don't like the surprise rules as they are in the PHB. I would love to know about any additions or complications there are to be found in the DMG to address specific situations. But I really don't understand why there is a problem accepting the basic surprise mechanic (i.e. if you are surprised you can't act on the first round). It's far less punitive than the old d6 method that could have you out of combat for multiple rounds based solely on a die roll, and as a DM you don't have to make the archers in the woods use stealth in the first place. That's one way to solve the problem.

I think the surprise rules work fine for simple scenarios where the enemies are all pretty much adopting the same strategy. Where I see them breaking down is in more complex scenarios like I describe in my OP - some enemies in pain view, others hidden in the trees.

Here's why I have trouble swallowing the surprise rules for that scenario.

Let's say there are 2 snipers and 10 bandits in plain view. Let's also say those 2 snipers roll have high Stealth scores and roll exceedingly well on their Stealth checks. The snipers surprise the PCs. Thus, because the PCs are surprised, they cannot act in that first round. Thus, not only do the 2 snipers get to fire, but now all 10 bandits in plain view get to attack. In essence, the 2 hidden snipers have "bought" surprise for the 10 bandits in plain view as well!

That's just kooky, obviously I mean, someone could say "Well, the PCs are so discombobulated from the sudden ranged fire at them that they don't know what to do, so they stand around with their thumbs up their asses while the bandits they were parlaying with draw swords and wail on them." BUT if you're going to say that then you're setting up a metagame situation where the optimal strategy for any large group of brutes is to have a few super-Stealth guys in hiding. Hah! The goblin surprised you! And now his 30 hobgoblin allies get to wail on you because you're "surprised" that first round of combat. Like I said, kooky

Compare this to a "surprise round" from older editions, where you'd just have the 2 snipers getting to fire. That seems far more like common sense to me than the way I'm understanding the 5e surprise rules.

Heck, it sounds like Chris Perkins even deviated from the 5e surprise rules as written in his Acquisitions Inc. game!

 

[Sadrik]

I would not grant surprise in this situation, because the PCs know there is a potential fight brewing and are on their guard. If the bandits pretended to be friendly traders, and the snipers opened up with no warning, then they could get surprise (I'd probably give the PCs an Insight check to sense something amiss with the "traders").

However, the snipers do get advantage for being unseen.

Exactly. No surprise. The PCs might be "surprised" to find there are archers in the woods but this is not a mechanical thing other than asking to roll for initiative if the PCs do not accept the brigands terms. Some of the combatants just start from a hidden position.

It would be like if the party wizard was invisible. He would not get a bonus surprise round he would just get advantage if he were to attack during his turn to act in the initiative order.

 

[Eric V]

Compare this to a "surprise round" from older editions, where you'd just have the 2 snipers getting to fire. That seems far more like common sense to me than the way I'm understanding the 5e surprise rules.

Heck, it sounds like Chris Perkins even deviated from the 5e surprise rules as written in his Acquisitions Inc. game!

Yeah, by establishing surprise as still happening on round 1, it's hard to come up with a justification for the in-sight bandits to not get a turn, I see that now.

I guess one solutions would be the insight vs. deception check to handle surprise on their end...maybe that's not satisfying though.

A surprise round would make more sense...the rule in the PHB reads that anyone unaware of the threat is surprised, and can't act in round one; maybe it should read "anyone unaware of the threat is surprised, only the source of said threat may act on round one," with obvious need to tidy up that language.

 

[Riley37]

I rather like the interpretation that the archers have a Held Action, and can fire on Reaction to a signal.

The skirmishing force doesn't need telepathy, nor to look at the archers, to trigger the exact moment of the archers opening fire. They just need a signal which the archers will recognize.

"’Twas only by favour of mine,” quoth he, “ye rode so long alive:
“There was not a rock for twenty mile, there was not a clump of tree,
“But covered a man of my own men with his rifle cocked on his knee.
“If I had raised my bridle-hand, as I have held it low,
“The little jackals that flee so fast were feasting all in a row."
- Rudyard Kipling, Ballad of East and West.

 

[jadrax]

Now you do have to apply some common sense in interpreting this rule. I'd say that if the undetected threat doesn't manifest itself in some way during the first round of combat then no, there is no surprise. How's that for a house rule?

I think the issues with that are you decide surprise before people act, so your Halfling rogue player can assure he will be attacking from surprise, then chicken out when the party fighter fails to hit its AC, and as GM you are stuck between rolling back the surprise round or making the Halfling attack even though he no longer wants to.

Additionally, I still feel it makes no sense that ambushing someone in the first round of combat is twice as effective as ambushing them in the second round.

 

[S_Dalsgaard]

Many of the suggestions here seems overly complicated. Lets take the invisible wizard [MENTION=14506]Sadrik[/MENTION] mentioned above.

The PCs are facing a group of bandits with the PC wizard already invisible. They have agreed beforehand, that the wizard attacking is the signal to engage. While the rest are talking/throwing threats around, the wizards sneaks up to a bandit and attacks. If we assume he knows his stuff, he will get a surprise round (round 0) and then both the PCs (including the wizard) and the bandits roll initiative and everyone go as normal from round 1.

The same applied to the OP's bandits would mean, that on round 0 the hidden snipers get surprise (if they beat the PCs' Perception) and take their actions. On round 1 everyone roll initiative (the attack being the signal for the rest of the bandits to act) and the battle starts.

If, on the other hand, the battle has already started before the hidden PC/bandits act, I would let them start their attack in any round they chose, and go on their initiative with advantage (as normal for invisible). I wouldn't break up the ongoing combat, to suddenly let a surprise round happen. For example the invisible wizard is holding back while the rest of the party acts, and then in round 2 (or whatever) he attacks one of the bandits with advantage and from round 3, he is a normal part of the combat.

 

[fjw70]

I would rule that surprise can't be imposed once initiative is rolled. I would only give the hidden archers a surprise round. The other bandits aren't surprised but intentionally holding back until after their buddies open fire.

So in order

1) PCs get perception check (rolled if actively looking around),
2) if not all PCs are surprised then roll initiative. Surprised PCs can't act in the first round.
3) If all PCs are surprised then hidden archers get free round then roll initiative.

 

[Dausuul]

Many of the suggestions here seems overly complicated. Lets take the invisible wizard @Sadrik mentioned above.

The PCs are facing a group of bandits with the PC wizard already invisible. They have agreed beforehand, that the wizard attacking is the signal to engage. While the rest are talking/throwing threats around, the wizards sneaks up to a bandit and attacks. If we assume he knows his stuff, he will get a surprise round (round 0) and then both the PCs (including the wizard) and the bandits roll initiative and everyone go as normal from round 1.

I would rule that surprise can't be imposed once initiative is rolled. I would only give the hidden archers a surprise round.

There is no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5E. There's just the first round of combat. "Surprised" is a condition*; those who are surprised can't take actions or reactions until they stop being surprised. (They're also vulnerable to auto-crits from assassins, and other such things.)

[SIZE=-2]*Not included in the standard conditions list, but it really should be.[/SIZE]

 

[Iosue]

The rule seems rather clear, now that I look at it. Surprise only applies to the first turn. It's checked by passive Wisdom (Perception) vs. Dexterity (Stealth) roll. If you're surprised, you don't move or take an action for that first turn.

So, if the decoy bandits attack before the hidden archers, the characters aren't surprised by the archers. They get advantage on attacks on any character that didn't notice them.

If the archers attack before the decoy bandits, anyone who didn't notice them with passive Wisdom (Perception) is Surprised. This includes the decoy bandits, who will need to make perception rolls to notice their brothers.

The only remaining questions, IMO, are DM calls -- do the PCs get active Wisdom (Perception) checks because they are on their guard? We can assume that the decoy bandits are scanning the trees for signs of their brethren -- do they get active checks? And if so, do they get advantage?

So now I'm going to go XP everyone who gave this answer!