D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[jadrax]

Snipers kind of still work, because at least they are attacking from cover.

A more interesting situations would be a traitor in the party, which can occur quite a bit in old school D&D (See Homlet). Under the current rules, it would seem that they would be much better off betraying and attacking the party on the first round of combat, rather than waiting a few rounds in.

 

[Eric V]

Bandits have a signal or something for their hidden allies to shoot?

I'd say the normal rules apply, myself: Everyone rolls initiative, but only the hidden archers get to go on round 1.

-E

 

[Hriston]

Bandits have a signal or something for their hidden allies to shoot?

I'd say the normal rules apply, myself: Everyone rolls initiative, but only the hidden archers get to go on round 1.

-E

Assuming then that the archers begin combat by shooting and that the PCs are surprised by this, what prevents the rest of the bandits from closing to melee on their initiative in the same round?

 

[Eric V]

Also, surprise in later rounds in combat really just works out as the DM adding them to the top of the initiative order (or the bottom of the round previous) and the surprise-ers getting advantage on their attacks (assuming they were hidden/unseen by their targets).

 

[Eric V]

Assuming then that the archers begin combat by shooting and that the PCs are surprised by this, what prevents the rest of the bandits from closing to melee on their initiative in the same round?

Because the PCs aren't surprised by the bandits in front of them, right?

 

[Quickleaf]

That does lead to the issue that if you don't notice a threat, but it doesn't actually act in the surprise round, your still surprised.

Right. Also, if the surprise rules are meant to work in scenarios like the one I described in my OP (I don't think they are), then EVERY encounter with multiple enemies should involve the most stealthy of them hiding to surprise the PCs. Then, once the PCs are surprised by that single monster, the surprise rules have that surprised condition allow ALL the other monsters (they could be clumsy trolls out in the open) to suddenly gain a round of free attacks. Why? Because the PCs are "surprised."

Obviously, this doesn't work because it defies common sense.

The surprise rules just don't seem robust enough to work when things start getting a bit complicated.

I don't mind rules with imprecise language, nor do I mind making things up (on the contrary, I enjoy it!). However, it's pretty clear these rules don't work. To be honest, they feel like something is missing, so I'm wondering if the DMG has more written on surprise.

 

[Hriston]

Because the PCs aren't surprised by the bandits in front of them, right?

So that prevents them from attacking the surprised PCs? Because they didn't cause the surprised condition of the PCs? It sounds like your making the bandits surprised. Why else would they just stand there for the entire round?

 

[Eric V]

So that prevents them from attacking the surprised PCs? Because they didn't cause the surprised condition of the PCs? It sounds like your making the bandits surprised. Why else would they just stand there for the entire round?

Well, I don't just see them standing around...I see it more like, arrows fly out of the woods (to be fair, even though the bandits know their allies will attack, they don't know the exact moment unless telepathy is involved or something), PCs, get startled/hit by them, but perhaps recover quickly enough to fend off the guys in front of them (who they were suspicious about in the first place), depending on their initiative rolls.

I see the turns less distinctly separate in this case and more how the first (surprise) round quickly bleeds into the other. If I really wanted the obvious bandits to get a surprise round, I might roll a Deception check vs. Insight of the PCs, to see if the PCs pick up on something; very oblivious PCs might get surprised by the obvious bandits that way.

Seems very punitive, though.

 

[Hriston]

That does lead to the issue that if you don't notice a threat, but it doesn't actually act in the surprise round, your still surprised.

Now you do have to apply some common sense in interpreting this rule. I'd say that if the undetected threat doesn't manifest itself in some way during the first round of combat then no, there is no surprise. How's that for a house rule?

 

[Hriston]

It seems like a lot of people on this thread don't like the surprise rules as they are in the PHB. I would love to know about any additions or complications there are to be found in the DMG to address specific situations. But I really don't understand why there is a problem accepting the basic surprise mechanic (i.e. if you are surprised you can't act on the first round). It's far less punitive than the old d6 method that could have you out of combat for multiple rounds based solely on a die roll, and as a DM you don't have to make the archers in the woods use stealth in the first place. That's one way to solve the problem.