D20 Modern Vs. Spycraft

Well, I finally broke down and bought D20 Modern last week. After running a spycraft game for a couple of months now, and loving it, I decided to see what D20 Modern was all about. I really like it so far, but I think Im leaning a bit towards Spycraft, except for perhaps switching out the ubiquitous "money vs. spending points" issues (I much prefer using a monetary system). Anyone else out there bought both, and if so, which do you prefer and for what reasons?

Hmm.... I have played neither, and I just got d20 Modern with my Xmas money. So I am not too up to snuff on it, but here are my impressions.

d20 Modern is a Tool Kit, Spycraft is an Espionage game.

Classes:

d20 has very generic concept classes. You can make any character concept with a mix of basic and advance classes. However it may take 3 to 5 levels to establish your character concept.

Spycraft, you character is one of the pre-established archatypes. Now these archatypes are very felxible since there is a lot a feats, but you still have to pick one of their general Archatypes.

Skills & Feats:

For the most part, they are the same. Some slight variations. (ie d20M uses Craft(Mechanical) where as Spycraft has Mechanics.) the Surveillence skill is unique to Spycraft, but it is a genre specific skill.

There are more feats in Spycraft, but those extra feats are for the genre or have to deal with the different combat system.

Combat:

Both are an improvement and clarifaction over DnD 3e combat. Spycraft simplfies things to Full, Half and Free actions. d20M uses Attack, Move, Full and Free actions. Effectively Spycraft combines d20M's Attack and Move Actions in to a simple Half action.

d20M grants iterative attacks based on the BAB of the character, Spycraft gants additional attacks tough the selection of Feats.

For the most part, I like Spycraft more then d20 Modern. But d20M is still a very good game. I would happily play either. Both are solid systems, so it is mearly a matter of taste which way you want to go.

=--The Luddite

Luddite, i dunno if you are on crack or what but the Spycraft feats are MUCH better than the d20 modern feats. By 'better' i don't mean more powerfull, i mean BETTER. In d20 Modern you need to take 2-3 feats to do something Joe Blow off teh street could do, gain benefit from taking time aiming. In Spycraft its assumed (properly IMO) ANYONE can aim. The d20 modern feats are boring, Spycrafts are exciting and full of interesting ideas and tactics.

The only case where d20 modern comes out the winner is the base classes and magic.

Even those are questionable with the flexibility of Spycraft classes (and the new ones) and the magic and psionics in the Shadowforce Archer campaign (a superior system as well). Also, last I heard AEG was listing cash costs as well now for equipment.

Gah, i have to stop now before I explode.....

Moved to d20 Systems Games.

Roland Delacroix said:

In Spycraft its assumed (properly IMO) ANYONE can aim.

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Correction: it's assumed any AGENTS can aim. Spycraft is after all an espionage game in which the PCs are assumed to be agents after having gone through basic training. Why do you think they used the term "agent level" instead of "character level"?

Roland Delacroix said:

Luddite, i dunno if you are on crack or what but the Spycraft feats are MUCH better than the d20 modern feats. By 'better' i don't mean more powerfull, i mean BETTER. In d20 Modern you need to take 2-3 feats to do something Joe Blow off teh street could do, gain benefit from taking time aiming. In Spycraft its assumed (properly IMO) ANYONE can aim. The d20 modern feats are boring, Spycrafts are exciting and full of interesting ideas and tactics.

The only case where d20 modern comes out the winner is the base classes and magic.

Even those are questionable with the flexibility of Spycraft classes (and the new ones) and the magic and psionics in the Shadowforce Archer campaign (a superior system as well). Also, last I heard AEG was listing cash costs as well now for equipment.

Gah, i have to stop now before I explode.....

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I think your opinion is in the minority. Some like one system more than others, but very few think either is MUCH "better" than the other.

I think people are forgetting one major thing about Spycraft - It is not an open-system for third party developers. You have to go through a liecensing process in order to write a spycraft module/book, which includes neogitation with their legal department. d20 Modern does not have that issue. In addition, d20Modern is a higher profile game, with support from WOTC. Ultimately these two factors will lead to far more support for the d20 Modern system. Spycraft will end up like Betamax machines and Atari/Commodore computers. Even if you thought Betamax and Atari/Commodore were better products than VHS and IBM-Compatible, in the end the more open systems left the competition in the dust. In my book, if two systems are almost as good as each other (and I think these two systems are), you are better served by learning the one with the most staying power.

Luddite said:

There are more feats in Spycraft, but those extra feats are for the genre or have to deal with the different combat system.

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That is not entirely true- they have skill feats that are interesting instead of the flood of +2/+2 skill feats. They have style and chase feats.

They also have high level combat feats. That is a huge plus in my book.

SD

Breakdaddy said:

Anyone else out there bought both, and if so, which do you prefer and for what reasons?

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If you have access to the search on the forum, then you may want to search this forum for a similar thread a month or so back- it had a lot of opinions shared. Quite a few thorough ones.

In short- I prefer Spycraft. I find it plays well and with the addition of other base classes (Sleuth, Explorer, and others coming) - it is expanding the options of how to use the system.

I don't like D20 Modern. I don't like the base classes and dislike a lot of the system design (monetary, backgrounds, advanced classes, etc).

Good luck with which ever you choose.
SD

d20 Modern is good if you want modern D&D style play.

Spycraft is good for any modern/near-future game where the characters are patroned by a huge organization that gives them missions.

One thing I've noticed about spycraft, though...the base classes are REALLY well put together. Each is expressely designed to not only support themselves well, but also help a team. Especially the Pointman.

I'm not sure it's an exact apples to apples comparison. I have both books, I haven't run a d20 modern campaign but I have run spycraft, and I think if you want to do espionage there's no question that spycraft is the better option. I think if you want to sort of play dnd in the future then d20 modern is better. It really depends on what you want to do with your game. And mistwell, with the amount of stuff AEG puts out for spycraft, I don't think you need to worry about support, they have alot of great products out already and alot in the pipe.