D20 Modern Vs. Spycraft

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

Maybe I'm missing something but I feel that SpyCraft is just that a Spy game. In that respect i feel that you're pigeon holed. I like the system over all and i like a lot of indiviual aspects of it better than d20 mod. I think that d20 mod is more veristile than spycraft though.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Yet another 'I like both systems' person here'!

It seems that the two games have similar settings, but very different world views. If I were runing a spy game Spycraft would win hands down.

If I were running a game about hidden magic in the modern world I would grab d20 Modern. (I am actually thinking about this last.)

Spycraft is a little more involved for folks that want to play straight from D&D. D20 Modern basically is D&D with a modern setting. On the other hand Spycraft fits the superspies genre almost perfectly. On the OTHER other hand the illustrations in D20 modern did something that the illustrations in niether SpyCraft nor D&D managed to do: Inspire. That Mind Flayer preacher and the Gnoll pimp are GOING to be used some day.

If I had to stand at the counter til I chose one or the other as 'better' I'd STILL be standing there.

THe Auld Grump, so instead I bought Swashbuckling Adventures....

 

[Morgenstern]

I think people are forgetting one major thing about Spycraft - It is not an open-system for third party developers. You have to go through a licensing process in order to write a spycraft module/book, which includes neogitation with their legal department.

"Lions and tigers and bears. Oh my!"

Fortunately, the whole d20 system put a lot of publishers on the map who understand about working with other people, and working within other people's systems.

d20 Modern does not have that issue. In addition, d20Modern is a higher profile game, with support from WOTC.

Are you still on about that?

*looks at books out for d20 Modern.*
*Looks at Spycraft section of shelves.*

Digital Burn was great idea, but I don't think things like it or Operation: Dead Drop are exactly raising the bar ...

Every Spycraft 3rd party book I've seen (and I've seen them all) has been met with the reaction of "Damn, that's some cool stuff!"

Ultimately these two factors will lead to far more support for the d20 Modern system. Spycraft will end up like Betamax machines and Atari/Commodore computers. Even if you thought Betamax and Atari/Commodore were better products than VHS and IBM-Compatible, in the end the more open systems left the competition in the dust.

You work for Microsoft, don't you ?

Look. I flatly reject the argument that just because WotC tries their hand at something, that no one else can succeed, or heaven's forbid, do it better.

...I mean come on, just look at what a masterpiece the D&D class books were. No one has ever sugested that they'd hoped for more from such products...

Excuse me, have to go replace the fuse on my sarcasa-meter.

In my book, if two systems are almost as good as each other (and I think these two systems are), you are better served by learning the one with the most staying power.

This conversation is going to appear so funny in hindsight . Lets meet back here in December and compare notes on what's out for Spycraft, and what's availible for d20 Modern. I mean heck, WotC should have at least 3 books out by then, and d20 Future will be only a couple of months away .

 

[Apok]

To all those who think Spycraft is simply a spy genre game and nothing else;

You are deluding yourselves!

While it's certainly not as generic as d20 Modern, it can be adapted to other modern or even futuristic genres of play. As an example, I'm planning on running a Spycraft game where the players are criminals ala Ocean's 11 or GTA3. You could also do a great Ronin-style campaign with the players as ex-intelligence/military operatives. Throw in some d20 CoC and you've got a neat Delta Green variant going on. Throw in cybernetics and advance the timeline a few hundred years and you could pull off cyberpunk. If you really wanted to, you could even transport one of the countless magic systems from the various d20 books out there and intermix that in the game. The fact that it is d20 means that it's compatible with a slew of material out there. Dragonstar, CoC, Arsenal, Oathbound, Four Colour to Fantasy, etc. All it takes is a little bit of work and some imagination and *poof!* you've got a whole new ballgame. The system is far more flexible than you would think, so don't limit Spycraft to just the superspy genre, though I'll admit that's what it does best.

Now, I know what you're thinking; why go through all the trouble of fiddling with some of the aspects of Spycraft (notably budget/gadget points v. money) when you can just use d20 Modern with it's more generic ruleset?

Because, like Roland mentioned, Spycraft just oozes style and coolness, while d20 Modern is pretty vanilla and a tad dry. I get exited every time I crack open a Spycraft book and think "Wow! Check out all this cool stuff! So many neat ideas..." On the other hand, I'll crack open a d20 Modern book and think "Meh. It's D&D in the modern era. Nothing in here I haven't seen before."

So, I prefer Spycraft because it can do anything d20 Modern can do (though it may require a tad more work) and it's got the "wow" factor going for it. Besides, I like the VP/WP system.

 

[Ranger REG]

Then you must like Star Wars, the first game to use VP/WP.

Trust me, I'd be the first to say that I like VP/WP as an alternative, and I would like Wizards to release that rules mechanic as OGC, so that other third-party publishers can use it besides AEG's Spycraft.

But we both know that this health system foster cinematic gameplay, as opposed to d20 Modern and CoC d20 grittier approach.

 

[Luddite]

That is not entirely true- they have skill feats that are interesting instead of the flood of +2/+2 skill feats. They have style and chase feats.

They also have high level combat feats. That is a huge plus in my book.

SD

That is what I said...The Style and Chase Feats are are specific to the Esiponage Genre.

And the High Level combat feats are there because of the fundemental changes to the Combat system.

This is not to say one is "better." Just to say where each one is coming from.

-The Luddite

 

[Psion]

Maybe I'm missing something but I feel that SpyCraft is just that a Spy game. In that respect i feel that you're pigeon holed. I like the system over all and i like a lot of indiviual aspects of it better than d20 mod. I think that d20 mod is more veristile than spycraft though.

2 points:
1) I don't see why this is a bad thing. Spycraft if a better fit to its genre.
2) 90% of the games I would want to run in a modern setting are espionage or paramilatary action/adventure, all of which Spycraft handles well.

At any rate, even discounting the fact that the more focussed nature of Spycraft is not a disadvantage if you are playing within its realm anyway, Spycraft has several mechanisms that make it a better system IMO. Frex:

1) Action dice are much better implemented than action points.
2) The way core abilities are done in spycraft makes each character's schtick more unique.
3) The way non-lethal combat is done in d20 modern is a joke.
4) Spycrafts magic and psionics systems are not just a retread of D&D.
5) The way massive damage is done in d20 Modern doubly ephasizes constitution.
6) You gain almost no benefit from automatic weapons in d20 modern unless you have a feat.

Those are just the ones that come to mind.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

That is what I said...The Style and Chase Feats are are specific to the Esiponage Genre.

I was not aware chase scenes were only part of the Espionage genre.

I think you are being a bit silly.

Plus while some of the style feats are spy-oriented, most are not.

SD

Edit: On a side note, AEG recently asked for emails suggesting things users would like to see done in future books.

I requested a book to play Spycraft outside of the spy setting. I.E. for expanded rules to play as regular people with the rule set. I got a response to watch Fall 2003 for a product that would address that request..

SD

 

[Apok]

Then you must like Star Wars, the first game to use VP/WP.

Actually, I've never had the urge to play SW. I'd play if the campaign sounded interesting, but it's nothing I'd jump at.

But we both know that this health system foster cinematic gameplay, as opposed to d20 Modern and CoC d20 grittier approach.

They are both about even, depending on how you run it. The fact that most characters will have, on average, 12-16 Wound Points means that a single good crit will kill them. Yes, I know that in Spycraft mooks can't crit, but it's very easy to houserule it to make the system "grittier" as you put it. I know in my game I let the players know that unnamed mooks can possibly crit. Also, you could make CoC or d20 Modern more cinematic by eliminating the Massive Damage rule.

It's all a matter of taste, both systems work equally well for both cinematic and gritty. I prefer the Spycraft VP/WP because it puts the decision in my hands. I can decide weather or not to spend that action die to enforce a crit, depending on how I want the game to run. If I feel like going the way of Last Action Hero, I'll save those crits for the major encounters. If I'm in a more Ronin mood, that punk on the street with a glock could very well shine you.

 

[Apok]

I requested a book to play Spycraft outside of the spy setting. I.E. for expanded rules to play as regular people with the rule set. I got a response to watch Fall 2003 for a product that would address that request..

Cool.

I'm excited already.