Travelling through a wormhole in space

Bullgrit

Adventurer
Hundreds of pages of squiggles can give you the concept of Middle Earth, and hobbits, magic rings, and wizards. All pretty darned specific.
But those squiggles were not placed by nature/god/accident, and the elements (hobbits, etc.) are not theoretical within the world so described.

Wormholes do not have a function, any more than hills have a function.
"Function" was a poor word, perhaps. Properties? Functional properties? A hill has functional properties (i.e. water will move from one high spot to a low spot).

Dark matter (and dark energy) is not "required by the math". The math does not *predict* the existence of dark matter. Instead, the existence of dark matter is required to explain observation and empirical evidence. We have observed matter in galaxies and in the Universe moving in ways that it *shouldn't*, that cannot be explained by the matter we see and the math we have. From this, we *infer* the existence of matter we cannot see (and is thus "dark").
I thought we had math for dark matter. I thought I've seen calculations of the actual "size" of dark matter. "There must be this much dark matter in the universe."

Isn't this the way all the math is determined? We see this phenomenon, we figure out the equations for it. If we see a new phenomenon, or the original shows to be slightly different, so we adjust the equations. From what I'm reading here, it seems that we have these equations based on what we've seen; the equations suggest something that we have no evidence for; so we theorize these things may exist -- rather than change the equations to match what we do have evidence for.

For the record: I'm not arguing. I'm discussing to better understand the concepts.

Bullgrit

Edit: This whole post is not written as well as it probably should be. But I don't have time right now to straighten it out.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I thought that neutronium was, more or less what is in the nucleus of an atom, with protons removed, and with a lot more of it (really, a lot more) than is in a typical atom.

It is slightly different, in that once you get beyond a few neutrons in an atom, you start seeing bulk properties.

Neutronium may have exotic properties, but, it doesn't seem to be quite the same as what worm holes are said to require, e.g., matter which is repelled by gravity. Neutronium is normal matter in an unusual configuration.

Before you say that, remember that neutronium is required to make the more basic forms of time machine!
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But those squiggles were not placed by nature/god/accident, and the elements (hobbits, etc.) are not theoretical within the world so described.

Oh? Read a sonnet that moves you. One that reveals an emotional truth that sits close to the human heart. That's what math does, but for the physical universe.

Math was not placed by nature/god. Math is merely how we express what *was* placed by nature/god. We just happen to have stumbled upon a *REALLY GOOD* form of expression, for things that are actually pretty simple, though much of it is outside our everyday experience.

This, as compared to the human heart, which is very complex, but solidly within our everyday experience. Far harder to express it in fullness.

I thought we had math for dark matter. I thought I've seen calculations of the actual "size" of dark matter. "There must be this much dark matter in the universe."

"There must be this much dark matter in the universe... to explain the observed motion of stars in galaxies," is the full statement

Isn't this the way all the math is determined?

Nope. By no means does all math follow observation.

We see this phenomenon, we figure out the equations for it.

That is a common approach, yes. But it is not the only one. It was not how Einstein did Special and General Relativity, for example.

In the case of relativity, Einstein started with a thought ("What of the speed of light was really constant?") and he worked out what were the logical consequences of that. Experiment has then verified that his work is an accurate model to pretty darned high precision. This model even predicts effects that we hadn't seen or considered before he published. In fact, pretty much all the effects his model predicts that we have been able to measure, have come true!

Large sections of quantum mechanics also predated observations of the effects they predicted/explained.
 
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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Several great points in this thread to reply to --- I'm going to try to take them in related bunches.

My understanding is that most solutions are unstable, unless you apply exotic matter to stabilize them.

There are a class of solutions in 5+D space that may be stable without exotic matter - they may be stabilized by quantum effects.
The purely 4D wormhole solutions I've perused in the last couple days require exotic matter just to exist in the first place, let alone be stable! I haven't yet read through the 5D wormhole stuff since I'm in a busy time at work.

I think it may be more clear to say it that it doesn't match the colloquial conception of a wormhole unless it makes the spacetime to be multiply connected (as opposed to simply connected, in a topological sense). Leave out the singularities like black holes, and if the space with the wormhole is still simply connected, that wormhole is just an oddly shaped dimple, as you put it. The wormhole may locally have different curvature than the rest of the spacetime, but from a practical standpoint... who cares?
Yes, I agree with that. The point of the simply-connected wormhole spacetimes is that they have the local structure a multiply-connected wormhole needs. So you can understand some basic facts about what we'd colloquially call a wormhole using a simplified model. Think of Morris-Thorne wormholes as the spherical cows of the wormhole world.

The question becomes very important when you start considering artificially creating a wormhole. A natural wormhole, as you've described them, is really just an area with slightly different curvature between two more normallly curved regions - one can imagine those developing naturally as the spacetime originally formed.
Well, if wormholes can exist at all, I don't see why a natural one could lead to multiple connections in our universe. It's just that, like most real things, the equations are a lot messier than they are for the spherical cows.

But, when you consider an artificial wormhole - if you cannot connect to your own spacetime, then you must connect to another one - and then the question of how that can be possible when that other spacetime cannot be assumed to have similar properties, becomes a bigger question. We could find that even if we have exotic matter, we cannot create such a thing because there's nothing compatible to connect to!
Yeah, obviously we'd like to drill through to alpha Centauri or whereever instead. ;) But also remember that all the discussion of wormholes in the literature (at least that I've seen) is about wormholes that exist forever unchanging or else analysis of whether a wormhole that's been around forever collapses if something goes through it. There's nothing at all about the formation of them. (This is really quite different than the situation for black holes; I'm writing a series of papers about black hole formation myself, for example.)

Just for emphasis, the formation/creation of a wormhole isn't worked out anywhere that I've seen. But I can make one statement: wormhole formation would change the topology of space. As Umbran says, it makes the universe multi-connected. In English, before there's as wormhole, there is one type of path from A to B; after the wormhole forms, there are two types of path, either the old type or a path through the wormhole. This type of change is pretty problematic in general relativity --- it's hard to avoid naked singularities. There are a few specific types of topology changes that are well-behaved in string theory, though.

Next post: comments on the exotic matter required for wormholes...
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Let me collect some of the comments from the thread first:
Would you put the exotic matter required for wormholes in the same category as tachyonic matter? That is, a kind of matter which, if it existed, would behave in exceptional ways compared to ordinary matter, but for which there is no physical evidence?

Well, there are a few things often referred to as "exotic matter" for which we do have at least some physical evidence. Neutronium comes to mind - this is a material produced when matter gets so compressed that the protons and electrons get pressed together so much they combine into neutrons, but not so compressed it falls into itself to become a black hole.
...
With a couple such caveats, yes, for the most part, "exotic matter" is stuff that might exist, but would have some really weird properties that we have never directly seen in physical reality.

Neutronium may have exotic properties, but, it doesn't seem to be quite the same as what worm holes are said to require, e.g., matter which is repelled by gravity. Neutronium is normal matter in an unusual configuration.

It is slightly different, in that once you get beyond a few neutrons in an atom, you start seeing bulk properties.

Before you say that, remember that neutronium is required to make the more basic forms of time machine!

In this case, TomB has the right idea. Neutronium is really just normal matter in extreme conditions. The "exotic matter" required for wormhole spacetimes very specifically must violate what is known as the Null Energy Condition (NEC); this is actually proven mathematically. Neutronium doesn't do that, nor does any kind of matter we know about. However, some quantum effects (such as the Casimir effect) and some objects in string theory (which is hypothetical, of course) do violate the NEC in ways that lead to sensible physics, so it's not possible to rule out wormholes on this basis. Other modified gravity theories can also mimic violations of the NEC. However, usually if you include violations of the NEC in physics, you get some kind of pathology like instability of the vacuum, causality violation (superluminal propagation), or negative probabilities. It's not clear that the NEC violation you need for a wormhole is a "safe" kind. So it may exist or it may not.

Incidentally, tachyonic fields to violate the NEC. As Umbran says elsewhere in the thread, they represent an instability. Specifically, a tachyon field at zero value is like a ball sitting on the top of a hill --- if it moves a tiny amount, say due to a quantum fluctuation, it falls off the hill and rolls into a valley. And when the tachyon settles in the valley, it's no longer tachyonic. This is indeed like the Higgs field of the Standard Model.

Anyway, the murky status of NEC violation is probably why wormholes are still kind of a niche subject. I mean, there's a reasonably sizeable literature on them but not a big one, and there seem to be a few authors who have done most of the work on them.

But I don't know anything about neutronium and time machines. :blush:
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
On how the math works....

Can you explain this? What does "something is allowed by the math" mean?

Morrus and Umbran gave some great initial answers, so I'm just going to give those a shout-out here rather than quote them (given the length this post will be).

In fact, I think rather than quote much of the above posts, I'm going to condense some of the points/questions and offer my thoughts. My apologies if I mangle what you're trying to say, but I want to paraphrase and go a bit out of order. I'll highlight when I start talking about a new point.

One conversation thread was basically Bullgrit asking about the math corresponding to a wormhole and how/why physicists came up with it. First off, we can talk about the "amount" of math needed. At the basic level, it's easy to write down in one line a formula that, with training, you could look at and puzzle out "oh, that's a tunnel connecting two parts of space." However, then you want to learn about it. That's where you can get into reams of paper. And
Bullgrit said:
I mean, I'm picturing someone looking at those whiteboards of equations, saying, "Hmm, what if this variable right here was a 2?" And the whole equation calculating out three feet away to "= tiny spacetime tubes connecting two points".
is great, because there are times like that for any theoretical physicist. Well, it's usually some symbol rather than a 2, and usually you're not changing things at whim but trying to figure out new ways to rearrange them, but, yes, I sometimes make a point to work on my chalkboard rather than paper just because the visual effect helps.

As to "why wormholes," my understanding is that people went looking for them. Let me explain more precisely. The Einstein equations of general relativity take in sketch form "geometry" = "matter-energy." Usually, what we do is start with some configuration of matter-energy and ask what the corresponding geometry of spacetime is. That's not what people have done in the case of wormholes. People wanted to study a specific geometry, namely a tunnel between two regions of space, so they plugged that into the Einstein equations and figured out what kind of matter-energy is required. That's why we've been talking about "exotic matter" so much in this thread. You'd never find a wormhole if you were looking at all the ways normal matter than bend spacetime. In a way, wormholes were a solution looking for a problem. I suspect that sci-fi fandom may have played a role motivating people to look at wormhole solutions, but I don't know that history.

On math as a language of physics (or maybe all science, if you like), Umbran states very nicely just how powerful math is in describing the world (yes, it is awesome). My personal view is a bit more along the lines that mathematical principles are something we discover, like we discover the laws of physics, but that's really more like a feeling.

If you want to compare wormholes to dark matter, you have two very different situations. As I said, people really went looking for wormholes. On the other hand, basically no one believed the first evidence of dark matter for decades until a new set of evidence came along. So we were really sort of forced to admit that we needed to add something to our models of cosmology. Interestingly, there's not really new math required --- dark matter behaves according to similar principles as normal matter in the simplest theories. But dark matter is predictive: once we knew that we needed dark matter to explain the rotation of galaxies, we could predict the consequences of that amount of dark matter for the cosmic microwave background (light from the very early universe), and the predictions really match the measurements excellently. We always like predictions out of physics theories.

Regarding the history of special/general relativity and quantum mechanics, Einstein was very much thinking about several unexplained experiments when he discovered special relativity, even though the thought experiments look unrelated. He had that rare genius to relate that simple thought to problems that were confusing everyone else. On the other hand, he did discover general relativity just because of questions in his own mind. There were no experimental prompts for him. But a successful prediction of general relativity was what made him famous. As for quantum mechanics, the basics were again discovered in an effort to understand confusing experiments, but, as Umbran says, there were indeed predictions of the math that weren't seen experimentally for a long time.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I just want to say that I love long informative threads like this. More of these, please!

I've often thought it might be fun to do an "Ask a physicist" thread for questions of this nature (other physics people like Umbran would be more than welcome to chip in answers, of course). Would it be kosher to run something off-topic like that in the AMA forum? The thread management features would be extremely helpful, I think.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Interestingly, there's not really new math required --- dark matter behaves according to similar principles as normal matter in the simplest theories.
Actually, the way I understood it, the existence of dark matter was posited to avoid having to introduce new math. I.e. if there was no dark matter, we'd have to revise our math to match our observations.

Likewise dark energy: if our math is correct, then dark energy must exist, otherwise our observations make no sense. Again the alternative, if I understood it correctly, is that our current math is simply incorrect (when applied to the universe at large).

I agree that wormholes are an entirely different beast: they're not required to explain any observations we've made. They're just something that might exist, according to our math. I had assumed that tachyons were in the same category...
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I've often thought it might be fun to do an "Ask a physicist" thread for questions of this nature (other physics people like Umbran would be more than welcome to chip in answers, of course). Would it be kosher to run something off-topic like that in the AMA forum? The thread management features would be extremely helpful, I think.

I think that would be fun!
 

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