Travelling through a wormhole in space

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Absolutely. It's just that causality, the inability to create time-travel paradoxes like killing your parents before you're conceived, is expected to be a important principle.

Fuddy-duddies and wet blankets, I say! :p


I understand the desire, but... well... Einstein thought God didn't play dice, right?

I am not sure we need the cosmic censorship if the effect can only be seen in properly extreme circumstances.

Plus, it would give us a neat answer to the Fermi Paradox. If FTL travel is equivalent to creating a time machine - we don't see alien species because anyone advanced enough to reach us extinguishes themselves in massive temporal conflicts.
 

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Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
Any halfway decent scientist knows that taking a measurement is really taking a sample. It is thus subject to potential sampling error. Scientists need to be honest with themselves about when they might be introducing such errors.

As a point of interest, When taking a measuring voltage in a circuit, a volt meter will take a sample like a resister in parallel - a sample of the current - the higher the ohm value of the tester, the smaller the sample.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
Um... this sounds ... weird. I'm trying to find a way to understand this without people thinking I'm saying "scientists are stupid." This seems to say that if our calculations don't match observation, then we decide our observations are wrong or incomplete. Isn't this the definition of "bad science"? Shouldn't "good science" refigure the math to match observations rather than hold firm to incorrect math (incorrect according to observation)? I fully posit that it's obvious I'm just not getting this idea.

Isn't this how aether theory was believed for a while.

Bullgrit

That's pretty much my take on it too, except I don't mind if people think I'm saying "scientists are stupid." Well, maybe foolish rather than stupid but that's a fine point. Making up some magic unobserved thing to explain why your theory is right even though it doesn't match physical evidence is pretty strained. Occam's razor and all that.

Edit: Reading further down the thread, Umbran's point about microwave radiation seems supportive but not conclusive. Even if dark matter turns out to be real, the methodology used was poor.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
That's pretty much my take on it too, except I don't mind if people think I'm saying "scientists are stupid." Well, maybe foolish rather than stupid but that's a fine point. Making up some magic unobserved thing to explain why your theory is right even though it doesn't match physical evidence is pretty strained. Occam's razor and all that.

Edit: Reading further down the thread, Umbran's point about microwave radiation seems supportive but not conclusive. Even if dark matter turns out to be real, the methodology used was poor.

Dark matter *is* the application of Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is dark matter; "all our years of math about gravity, despite a million things and a century of solid empirical evidence except this one thing which show it to be right, is wrong" is a less simple explanation.

Sure, it *might* be the latter. Nobody has ever claimed otherwise. But Occam's Razor says it's the former. There's some matter we can't see. It's a far more likely explanation.

And, even so, scientists don't take it as read even remotely. Nobody is stating absolutes. They are devoting vast amounts of time and resources to detecting dark matter.

Planets have been discovered that way. Motion of other bodies suggests a planet must be there, but we haven't seen it yet. Lo and behold, we find Neptune exists! This is not shoddy science, it's exactly how it's supposed to work. Evidence - hypothesis - theory. We're at the hypothesis stage. But it's a good hypothesis.

It's easy to post on the Internet that scientists are "foolish" and inventing "magic". It's also pretty unfair. Especially coming from those of us - like myself - who wouldn't even know where to begin pointing out the flaws in current theories to support such accusations.

I mean, you declare that the methodology is poor. We're talking hundreds of complex papers filled with intricate maths and observations and carefully honed computer models, from hundreds of scientists who approach the problem in different ways, and come to the same conclusion.

Plus scientists would be delighted to discover that there's a new law of gravity. That's far more exciting than dark matter! They'd *love* that. Discovering that the universe doesn't work the way we think it does is what they like doing. That would be their equivalent of 1000 Christmasses rolled into one.

Remeber the higgs boson? It was just like this. It was theorized to exist because evidence suggested it must do, or our models of the universe are all wrong. So they made a giant particular collider in CERN and looked for it. And they found it.

I remember Prof. Brian Cox saying that they best result would be to not find it. Finding it is just confirmation that the maths is right. If it didn't exist - now THAT would be exciting, because it would mean a whole new area of physics would open up. Our theories would be all wrong; we'd have so much to discover. Sadly, they found it. The boring result! The universe worked the way the maths said it would.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Even if dark matter turns out to be real, the methodology used was poor.

With respect - I suspect you speak from ignorance on methodology. I gave a quick precis, so that laymen could get a basic idea of where ideas came from. Do not, for a moment, take that as a full accounting of the intellectual rigor of the actual scientific discussion involved.

And, no, there was nothing in the methodology that was poor. When doing scientific investigation, if your empirical measurements don't match what you expect, proper methodology includes trying to find *all* possible culprits. Closing your mind to alternatives is poor methodology. Assuming that you caught all the data, and that the mathematical model is incorrect, is a form of arrogance - "I couldn't *possibly* have missed anything!"

So, no, there was no issue with the methodology. There may have been a problem with how you were taught about the "scientific method" - it is common to teach kids that science (specifically physics) goes from equation -> experiment -> updated equation. This is demonstrative, but an oversimplification of valid scientific process.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Plus scientists would be delighted to discover that there's a new law of gravity. That's far more exciting than dark matter! They'd *love* that. Discovering that the universe doesn't work the way we think it does is what they like doing. That would be their equivalent of 1000 Christmasses rolled into one.

Really. Imagine having your name in history as the person who proved Einstein was wrong! That'd give a theoretician *shivers of glee!* :)
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
With respect - I suspect you speak from ignorance on methodology. I gave a quick precis, so that laymen could get a basic idea of where ideas came from. Do not, for a moment, take that as a full accounting of the intellectual rigor of the actual scientific discussion involved.

I'll admit I don't have a complete idea of everything done in the field - that would take more time than I have available - but I'm not exactly a layman either. I have been a professional researcher in the past and I'm pretty familiar with how things go, at least in my domains of knowledge (control theory, inertial navigation, optics, acoustics). After chatting with a mathematician friend last year about dark matter, I was interested enough to spend an afternoon reading up on what's been done. What I read reminded me of personal experiences where social dynamics among the people involved drove the direction of research as much as the data does. As you said, it makes sense to look into every possibility, but in the stuff I read, at least, it looked like the possibility that the gravity model needed to be modified had almost been ignored, with 99%+ of research effort looking into dark matter rather than other possibilities. Even now the alternatives to dark matter are considered very much fringe science. Whatever the truth turns out to be, I don't think that giving almost all research effort to looking for something that had never in any way been observed rather than giving some effort to investigating the possibility that the theories were incorrect was a good idea.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Plus, it would give us a neat answer to the Fermi Paradox. If FTL travel is equivalent to creating a time machine - we don't see alien species because anyone advanced enough to reach us extinguishes themselves in massive temporal conflicts.

Haha, that would be fun! Incidentally, I just saw a lecture this evening by Miguel Alcubierre, discoverer of the warp drive spacetime, that talked about wormholes and warp drives at a public level. Very apropos. Anyway, he's in favor of chronology protection, for whatever that's worth.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
How is it that a wormhole thread comes around to dark matter so much? Anyway, Morrus and Umbran have already made nice posts, but this will be my take.

I'll admit I don't have a complete idea of everything done in the field - that would take more time than I have available - but I'm not exactly a layman either. I have been a professional researcher in the past and I'm pretty familiar with how things go, at least in my domains of knowledge (control theory, inertial navigation, optics, acoustics). After chatting with a mathematician friend last year about dark matter, I was interested enough to spend an afternoon reading up on what's been done. What I read reminded me of personal experiences where social dynamics among the people involved drove the direction of research as much as the data does. As you said, it makes sense to look into every possibility, but in the stuff I read, at least, it looked like the possibility that the gravity model needed to be modified had almost been ignored, with 99%+ of research effort looking into dark matter rather than other possibilities. Even now the alternatives to dark matter are considered very much fringe science. Whatever the truth turns out to be, I don't think that giving almost all research effort to looking for something that had never in any way been observed rather than giving some effort to investigating the possibility that the theories were incorrect was a good idea.

With all due respect, I don't think you can get a fair picture of what's been done in an afternoon even with the research background you have. And I don't think your mathematician friend has one either, unless he/she is actually an astrophysicist or particle physicist of the right type. Here is my disclaimer: I am a university professor of physics, and half of my research program is particle physics related to dark matter. I get research grants to carry out that work; those grants do not pay my salary, but they do pay some of my students (on the grand scale of things, I am pretty small potatoes, but whatever). That said, dark matter was something I picked up after about a decade of work on other subjects, and it took me quite a while to become fully conversant with the details of the evidence and current work. There is a lot going on! My point is just that there is a lot of detailed analysis that people really do check over independently. This is science done the same way all good science is done.

But, anyway, here's the story:
Dark matter was first discovered in the 1930s. No one believed in it at the time. People were probably not convinced by the measurements (errors were large at the time, and in fact the numbers were off compared to current measurements).
It took 35 years for the idea to come up again due to (better) measurements in somewhat more controlled systems (orbits of stars in galaxies as opposed to more random motions of galaxies in clusters). At that point, it was fair to say that the measurements could be explained by a new particle that does not interact with light, dark matter, or a modified gravity theory, which I will call MOND after the most prominent.
Now we have other measurements besides stars in galaxies. We have:
1) Galaxies in clusters. Motion of galaxies is well explained by a similar amount of dark matter as in galaxies (in proportion to normal matter). MOND that explains galaxy rotations can explain clusters only if you also postulate some additional matter that does not interact with light --- dark matter again. Maybe there is an epicycle that fixes this problem; I see differing claims.
2) Gravitational lensing of light passing galaxies and clusters of galaxies. Again, this is well explained by the expected amount of dark matter and not by MOND. A famous example is the bullet cluster, which is really two clusters colliding. The prediction of dark matter theory matched the observations. MOND predicted something else, though I will say its adherents quickly came up with a tweak to match the observations pretty quickly after the fact.
3) The overall structure of the universe matches very well with simulations that include the expected amount of dark matter. There are multiple types of measurements to support this. Something related is the following.
4) The prediction of dark matter theory matches in extreme detail observations of the cosmic microwave background, which is relic light that gives us a good picture of the universe when it was very nearly uniform. Because of that uniformity, physics was in many ways simpler then than now, so its relatively easy to make predictions for the CMB given some theory. And those measurements just can't work without a different source of gravity than normal matter. Even some high profile proponents of MOND theories have admitted that modifying gravity without dark matter just can't explain these observations. I should note that CMB observations of sufficient detail were not done until 2000 and later, long after dark matter was first really accepted.

So, here we have quite a few observations made over decades of history. There are two sets of theories to explain them. One, dark matter, was calibrated by the first accurate measurement and subsequently did very well predicting the results of later observations. The other, MOND or modified gravity, was calibrated very well to the first measurement and didn't do very well at all with subsequent ones. Yet people still study it (I see papers on it reasonably often) because it does well on the galaxy level. But I hope you can see in a limited way why there is so much work done on dark matter. It is the Occam's razor theory.

Then there is the issue of whether it's crazy to invent a new type of particle and look for it. Here's my response. To have the chemistry we know, we only really need 4 types of particles: electrons, protons, neutrons, and photons. But instead protons and neutrons are made up of a couple of types of quarks held together by gluons. That's really all you need. But we have also discovered neutrinos, which are totally different and weird in their own way. And muons, which are just like electrons but about 200x heavier. And taus, which are still just like electrons but even heavier. And 4 more kinds of quarks. None of these really had to be there. The equations work better with two additional force carriers for some nuclear interactions, and we found them. Same thing for the Higgs boson. But 2/3 or more of the "matter" particles are just there, and we don't know what principle says they should be there. So is it that strange to say there might be one more type of particle? Especially since there are hints in the equations and experiments that physics might just work better with some more particles of specific types that include some that could reasonably be dark matter?

Well, I hope that's enough for you to read for one night. ;)
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
How is it that a wormhole thread comes around to dark matter so much? Anyway, Morrus and Umbran have already made nice posts, but this will be my take.

--- snip good stuff ---

Thanks for the overview - I wasn't aware of some of the older stuff you mentioned. With that in mind I will concede that the focus of research on the dark matter theory is not as unreasonable as I had thought. The danger of self-directed literature search is that it's tough to get even a good overview if you don't know where all to look in the first place. The postulating of dark matter still seems different to me than the particles you mentioned. IRC they either fell out of the math or were directly observed in some manner rather than invented to explain a theory's shortcomings, but that's just quibbling at this point.
 

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