Gay Rights

Bullgrit · Jun 25, 2015

Some of the stereotypes regarding the Navy (and the military in general) have basis in fact and one of them is rampant and casual homophobia, at least among submarine sailors. The sex-talk was near constant and overwhelmingly sexist.

I can imagine, and I don't doubt, how it is in that kind of environment. But would you say that is representative of the norm in general society?

Though there are many other issues of tolerance, inclusiveness, and acceptance

Are these "rights"? Things to be enforced by laws? I can see forcing tolerance, but inclusion and acceptance? You may have to tolerate your neo-nazi neighbors, but do you have to include and accept them?

rights to not be beaten up

Don't gays [everyone] already have this right?

They need employment fairness: you might not be fired from the military anymore, but not all states protect gays from being fired for their orientation.

They need housing fairness: you can still be evicted from your rental property for being gay in some states.

They need fairness in adoption: some places, homosexuality is a bar to adoption.

I'll take your word for this, as you are the lawyer. I didn't realize these were still problems, because I haven't heard of an incident of these in, like 20 years. I mean, I see/hear/read/know about gays having jobs, living in rentals, and adopting babies, but I don't the discrimination.

Bullgrit

JamesonCourage · Jun 25, 2015

Bullgrit said:
It's interesting how vastly different our cultural experiences can be even though we are generally in a very similar cultures (US and Canada, not France and Iran, for instance).

I worked retail and restaurant jobs in high school and college. After college, I've worked in white collar jobs for 20+ years. My circle of friends through the years have been in similar positions. Though sex talk did come up occasionally (rarely), it wasn't at all common or the norm.

I'll just throw in my experience on this, too.

First job: Sex talk came up a lot.
Second: Rarely did, but it did.
Third: Never came up.
Fourth/Fifth*: Came up frequently.
Sixth: Came up occasionally (though relationships were discussed more).

*I don't count my job at FEMA (technically between my fourth and fifth job), as I was fired after one week for being too lenient/generous.

Bullgrit · Jun 25, 2015

They need protection in death: wills in favor of gay lovers have been successfully challenged by family members in court and tossed out on the grounds of "undue influence", "lack of testamentary ability". In one shameful Texas case, the court tossed out the decedent's will and voided several prior versions (covering decades) that left the entire estate to the surviving significant other to hand the estate over to the surviving family who had ostracized the deceased.

I knew about this kind of thing. And rights regarding patient healthcare. And child/parenting rights. Etc. These are the kinds of things that I figured would be cured with allowing gay marriage, because without marriage, gay relationships are no different than normal hetero boyfriend/girlfriend relationships -- a girlfriend wouldn't be allowed to make decisions for an unconscious boyfriend in the hospital, etc.

Bullgrit

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 25, 2015

Bullgrit said:
Don't gays [everyone] already have this right?

Legally, yes. Functionally? Not really.

I knew a guy who got drummed out of the Army in the 1990s for being bisexual. He was in Ranger training,mand second only to the instructor in hand-to-hand combat skill. When his orientation was revealed, some of his fellow training groups thought it would be a good idea to beat him up.

Over the ensuing weeks, he put each attacker in the hospital. MEventually, the commander issued an order to leave him alone...

But AFAIK, except for their time in physical rehab, not one of those trainees was disciplined for their assault on a fellow soldier.

There was a police raid on a gay nightclub here in Dallas/Fort Worth a few years ago. Several patrons were injured. It took quite a while before appropriate discipline was even considered, much less meted out.

I'll take your word for this, as you are the lawyer. I didn't realize these were still problems, because I haven't heard of an incident of these in, like 20 years. I mean, I see/hear/read/know about gays having jobs, living in rentals, and adopting babies, but I don't the discrimination.

It really does vary state by state.

Bonus fact: did you know that in 7 states, it is illegal for atheists to hold public office? Not that that could survive a constitutional test, IMHO, but nobody has challenged those laws yet.

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 25, 2015

Bullgrit said:
I knew about this kind of thing. And rights regarding patient healthcare. And child/parenting rights. Etc. These are the kinds of things that I figured would be cured with allowing gay marriage, because without marriage, gay relationships are no different than normal hetero boyfriend/girlfriend relationships -- a girlfriend wouldn't be allowed to make decisions for an unconscious boyfriend in the hospital, etc.

Bullgrit

Would that it were so. But each distinct area of the law will probably engender its own struggles. After all, just because you're married to the person who left you a bunch of money in a will doesn't mean that others can't or won't challenge that will. Ask Anna Nicole Smith's lawyers.

KirayaTiDrekan · Jun 25, 2015

Bullgrit said:
I can imagine, and I don't doubt, how it is in that kind of environment. But would you say that is representative of the norm in general society?
Bullgrit

Anecdotal observation - when you have a mostly single-gender environment (submarines were men-only up until about a year ago and I think the integration is still being delayed, though I'm not current on the news regarding that), some of the societal taboos are relaxed, thus allowing true feelings, opinions, and behaviors to be exhibited. The homophobia that's kept on a bit of a leash among mixed company is unleashed when they don't feel they are being judged. So, I would say, yes, it is representative of what's lying just under the surface.

Umbran · Jun 25, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
There was a police raid on a gay nightclub here in Dallas/Fort Worth a few years ago. Several patrons were injured. It took quite a while before appropriate discipline was even considered, much less meted out.

Yes, well, we seem to have a general problem with discipline of police officers, which is probably the subject of another thread.

Ryujin · Jun 25, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
The problem is, there are literally tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of laws and regulations intersecting with the marriage laws.

Far easier from a legal drafting and cost-efficiency standpoint to define marriage in a gender-neutral fashion.

When you make a band-aid fix, you have patchwork results. Doing things right is rarely easy, but it's still best.

Umbran · Jun 25, 2015

Ryujin said:
When you make a band-aid fix, you have patchwork results. Doing things right is rarely easy, but it's still best.

I don't think using a different word than "marriage" is going to help. At all.

We are talking about people who are literally fighting against what they view to be a redefinition of what "marriage" is. Don't you think they'll catch this one out?

Ryujin · Jun 25, 2015

Umbran said:
I don't think using a different word than "marriage" is going to help. At all.

We are talking about people who are literally fighting against what they view to be a redefinition of what "marriage" is. Don't you think they'll catch this one out?

Sure, but when it comes to government it would no longer be an issue. My main goal here is to get government out of the middle of what "those people" try to conflate as being a religious issue. You've got to start somewhere and, to me, that's where to start.

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