Paladin behavior question

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Villainess makes a deal with the party that her brothers, 13 ogres, won't sack the nearby town if the group turns over the magic sword the group's paladin carries, one year to the day after the deal. (The sword was created by the villainess' grandmothers and is a McGuffin they hope to use at some point in the future.)

After much adventuring, the group returns to find the town more or less sacked already and kill a number of ogres, although not 13 of them, and not in any sort of organized invasion.

They finally catch up to the villainess, who previously had threatened to slaughter the paladin's family if he didn't hold up his end of the deal, and she's tied to a stake outside the longhouse she and her brothers occupy. She tells the group that the deal with the paladin caused a rift in the family, and the ogres went to war amongst themselves, and some of the brothers left her here, tied up, when they went off to destroy the town.

The paladin executes her on the spot, for past crimes and her future evil intentions.

So, does this impact his paladin status in your campaign? Why or why not?
 

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N'raac

First Post
You have not given us any background on the campaign's culture. Would the law of the land have required the villainess be taken alive and stand trial for her crimes? If convicted, would she face imprisonment or death? If executing her as a helpless captive contravenes the laws of the land, which the Lawful Paladin should respect. However, that's a very "20th century imposed on game world" culture.

A more "wild west frontier" setting would suggest the adventurers are justified in dealing out justice for the crimes of the villain. A feudal Japan culture could even demand such execution, and his status could suffer if he breaches this requirement of Law and Tradition. Part of his code (taken from the 3.5 rules) requires he "punish those who harm or threaten innocents". Has he not done just that?

I suspect the real question is not "does this behaviour count as a shift away from the Paladin's required LG alignment", but "has he committed that single evil act which costs Paladinhood immediately". Evil implies killing, but clearly any D&D game will see adventurers using lethal force against evil opponents, so merely killing an opponent (whether on the battlefield, letting them bleed out after combat or a Lawful execution) cannot be an "evil act" in and of itself. His actions are motivated by justice for (past actions) and protection of (future actions) innocents, a very Good motivation. I would not consider his actions a shining beacon of Good, but neither are they an act of Evil.

Without knowing the tone of the specific game, and the laws of the land, I can't assess whether this action would count in favour of, against or irrelevant to his code of conduct or LG status. If, due to those issues, this is an act contravening his code, then I expect the Paladin would know this, so the player may need to be provided with some character knowledge before making his decision. "HAHA - Gotcha - no more Paladin" does not make for a good game, in my view. This instance isn't black and white, so I don't see it as one that would merit such a warning.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Yeah, I don't see any problems. Since the town was sacked anyway, then the "deal" was broken by the villainess's brothers, thus there is no deal. If the villainess indeed committed known crimes, if my PC were the paladin, I'd slay her too. (I don't consider that an evil nor lawless act and not a breach of alignment by the paladin). I find it all perfectly reasonable. To me single acts, depending on how deplorable the act is, is not enough to cause the paladin to fall. As a GM, I'd need to see an ongoing intent to perform lawless or evil acts before a paladin falls, not a single act that may be questionable.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I'm a little unclear on timeline here...this sacking was done before the year and a day? Had the party agreed to the terms? Had the paladin? Were they returning, within the time allotted...to turn over the sword?

Things only you know: Was the ogress telling the truth about the rift in the family and being tied up?...or, at least, did some of her brothers act without her knowledge or instruction/against her wishes?

As far as my understanding/sensibilities of paladin [how things would go in my games, only you know if they are applicable to yours]:

1. I would have begun posing penalties as soon as the LG paladin entered into a "deal" with an evil creature. That's a no-no.

2. If they were NOT coming back to fulfill their end of the bargain, not keeping your word? A no-no. Whether or not the ogres kept their end of the bargain does not, somehow, release the paladin from his own oath. The agreement may be void, yes. But that doesn't apply to whether or not the paladin was intending to uphold his end of the bargain. He should upholding his standards, or those of his alignment/deity, regardless of what the rest of the world does...THAT'S being a paladin.

3. Slaying a captive/helpless/surrendered foe or someone innocent of the alleged crime? A no-no.

I'd say:
A. Ye ole "laying on of hands" is going to begin requiring a Wisdom check to make happen...suffer -2 to the roll and losing 2 HP of effectiveness per week that goes by without atonement.

B. Ye ole Divine Sense is going to become fuzzy. Maybe knock it back to a 75% chance of success for the first week. 50% the next, etc... so that by the time a month has gone by, the Divine Sense isn't functional at all...Need atonement.

C. Turning Undead should become more difficult...like the lay on hands, maybe. Increasingly more difficult until it ceases to function.

D. Perhaps the paladin's protective aura immediately switches to only protecting themselves instead of those around them. A month later, if no atonement has been found...or in the process of being sought out, it ceases functioning entirely.

E. I'd give it no more than 6 weeks to let the SEARCH for atonement begin. If that hasn't happened within 6 weeks...ye ole Paladin becomes ye ole Fighter guy.
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
Another import thing to keep in mind is if the paladin is empowered to deliver justice - and if he is, is he bound to deliver justice.

If he is - then the player should also be made aware of this as it will be as important to see what he doesn't do as much as what he does.

Also, and this depends upon the how this was done - but in most romantic/storytelling settings, killing a helpless foe is pretty much frowned upon. After a trial: it's an execution; just like that: it's butchery and murder and an act of "honorlessness".

Much like the "dark knight" may be in his right to kill the peasant over "meaningless" offense X, it's not like he's making many friends if the peasantry don't find the act justifiable.

What constitutes a "trial" can be very variable. The usual (IRL) goal of these "trials" is to appease general moral qualms so it need not be all that "rigorous" in your world (as opposed to modern day trials - which serve the same function in many instances, but the level of scrutiny and the complexity of the moral fabric forces a very thorough procedural approach.) So pretty much any kind of "Do you have anything to say for your sins?" followed with "This tribunal finds you guilty of X" and *chop* could very well be sufficient "trial".

Another thing which may be of interest (if your group likes to play in a world where the PCs are accountable for their actions) is to take note of what the PCs consider death-deserving actions. Once this is established, it might very well be that the PCs themselves will deserve just-death through their actions. But this can be a touchy subject - so make sure it's an angle your group will enjoy.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
You have not given us any background on the campaign's culture. Would the law of the land have required the villainess be taken alive and stand trial for her crimes? If convicted, would she face imprisonment or death? If executing her as a helpless captive contravenes the laws of the land, which the Lawful Paladin should respect. However, that's a very "20th century imposed on game world" culture.
Sorry, it was late when I posted. The setting they're in is as close to baseline D&D world as possible in this aspect. Technically, it's a pseudo-medieval empire with Roman overtones sliding into a dark age after flirting with steampunk "modernity." (It's the Tarsisian Empire from Monte Cook's "Ptolus.") The paladin serves Lothian (and has even served as a town priest in the past), the setting analogue for medieval Catholicism. Him wrestling with his faith and his relationship to the church -- the local bishop frowned on him palling around with a cleric of Garl Glittergold who explicitly sought to break the stranglehold the Church of Lothian had on cultural life in their part of the empire -- is a big element of his character. He has been getting more "badass" as the campaign has progressed in level and they've faced successively bigger threats. (This is their first adventure after saving the barony from a kobold army that summoned an Aspect of Tiamat as their doomsday weapon, for instance.)

Yeah, I don't see any problems. Since the town was sacked anyway, then the "deal" was broken by the villainess's brothers, thus there is no deal. If the villainess indeed committed known crimes, if my PC were the paladin, I'd slay her too. (I don't consider that an evil nor lawless act and not a breach of alignment by the paladin). I find it all perfectly reasonable. To me single acts, depending on how deplorable the act is, is not enough to cause the paladin to fall. As a GM, I'd need to see an ongoing intent to perform lawless or evil acts before a paladin falls, not a single act that may be questionable.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of "gotcha" moments of that nature, either. And I'm not sure that I agree that the deal is voided if her brothers overpowered her -- and there's dead ogres all over, which the player characters have seen, which suggests she was telling them the truth -- and tied her up. But in any case, my focus is on a bound and helpless captive getting her head chopped off in lieu of anything else. I'm not sure untying her for a "fair fight" makes a lot of sense, either (and she had dormant skeletons and zombies laying under the snow that she hadn't called into action when she was executed, so it wouldn't have been as fair of a fight as it would have seemed if she had been untied anyway).

I'm a little unclear on timeline here...this sacking was done before the year and a day? Had the party agreed to the terms? Had the paladin? Were they returning, within the time allotted...to turn over the sword?
The party was returning a year after the deal was made, just when they were due to show up. They expected the village of Bootblack to be standing, if likely heavily armed and partially vacated -- and in fact, the women, children and elderly were evacuated before the ogres lost their patience and attacked -- but not to see it mostly smashed to pieces and many of the surviving militia members dead or carried off (most of whom have been eaten along the way by low-impulse-control ogres).

Things only you know: Was the ogress telling the truth about the rift in the family and being tied up?...or, at least, did some of her brothers act without her knowledge or instruction/against her wishes?
Yes to all of that. She's one of those villains that I favor who uses the actual truth as a weapon and told them flat-out this was the case.

1. I would have begun posing penalties as soon as the LG paladin entered into a "deal" with an evil creature. That's a no-no.
Hmm. They acted out of expediency by making the deal -- the sword's pretty powerful and they might have needed it against the kobold army, but ironically, since it is the creation of a hag coven, they've been scared to use it. But obviously, paladin-hood doesn't view that as a good reason to make such a leap.

3. Slaying a captive/helpless/surrendered foe or someone innocent of the alleged crime? A no-no.
Yeah, that's my hang-up. I mean, for sure, she's a CE/NE half-ogre wizardess explicitly intent on waiting for the return of her hag grandmothers at some point in the coming decades to bring about some imagined humanoid invasion of the region and to drive out (or more likely wipe out) the human and dwarf presence in the region. But at the moment, she was a smart-mouth tied to a stake.

E. I'd give it no more than 6 weeks to let the SEARCH for atonement begin. If that hasn't happened within 6 weeks...ye ole Paladin becomes ye ole Fighter guy.
Hmmm.
 

N'raac

First Post
Is the deal still valid?

that her brothers, 13 ogres, won't sack the nearby town if the group turns over the magic sword the group's paladin carries, one year to the day after the deal.

She may have tried to prevent it, but the town was sacked. Sounds like she did not succeed in delivering on her end of the deal.

I’m not clear what “past crimes” are referred to in the first post. Killing her for something she might do in future seems less defensible than executing her for actual crimes committed.

“she's a CE/NE half-ogre wizardess” with evil and destructive plans. She`s also threatened innocent people, apparently, being the Paladin`s family. So what should the Paladin do, let her go? Practically, PC’s are often faced with helpless foes – bleeding out on the ground between 0 hp and death, for example. Should the Paladin be stabilizing them and nursing them back to health?

“She's one of those villains that I favor who uses the actual truth as a weapon and told them flat-out this was the case.” So? That does not give the characters reason to trust her. They have to rely on what they have experienced. Does she have an in-game reputation for being truthful and honourable?

You also mention skeletons and zombies she can call into action – yet she did not do so to prevent the ogres tying her to a stake? Out of curiosity, what would have happened if they had untied her? That can’t impact the PC’s decisions as they could not have known what she would do, of course. But I find a lot of cases where GM’s complain their players are ruthless and merciless, when the result of mercy and kindness in-game is pretty much universally betrayal. I can’t say what these players experience in this game is, though.

I`m not seeing anything that would change my initial viewpoint that this isn`t an act that has much impact on his Paladinhood. I also hate the "gothca" mentality that sometimes applies to Paladins. So I`ll come back to my question above for anyone who thinks the Paladin should be punished. What was the right answer – the action he should have taken in this situation? In my view, if a clear right answer cannot be identified, the action taken should be accepted as "not wrong".
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Villainess makes a deal with the party that her brothers, 13 ogres, won't sack the nearby town if the group turns over the magic sword the group's paladin carries, one year to the day after the deal. (The sword was created by the villainess' grandmothers and is a McGuffin they hope to use at some point in the future.)

After much adventuring, the group returns to find the town more or less sacked already and kill a number of ogres, although not 13 of them, and not in any sort of organized invasion.

They finally catch up to the villainess, who previously had threatened to slaughter the paladin's family if he didn't hold up his end of the deal, and she's tied to a stake outside the longhouse she and her brothers occupy. She tells the group that the deal with the paladin caused a rift in the family, and the ogres went to war amongst themselves, and some of the brothers left her here, tied up, when they went off to destroy the town.

The paladin executes her on the spot, for past crimes and her future evil intentions.

So, does this impact his paladin status in your campaign? Why or why not?

Executing a helpless opponent, with whom he had made a deal, and who had upheld her end of the deal as much as was in her power (her only failure was overestimating her control over her brothers)?

It depends, very heavily, on the particular oath the Paladin has taken. In every group where I play a Paladin, I try to hash out at least a basic code/oath with the DM so that I can know where I stand. That way, I (hopefully) don't have to deal with :):):):):):):):) catch-22 situations from a DM who tries to hamstring me over a deeply-binding oath that isn't spelled out, and thus can have utterly irreconcilable flaws (e.g. never break a law, never do an evil deed; some laws are evil, thus the code is self-defeating, but the Paladin is held responsible for the "violation.") Were I to DM for someone else, who expressed a desire to play a Paladin, I would expect to have a conversation about their oath with them--and if they did not bring it up, I certainly would, because I have no desire to become what I hate!

You probably want an actual answer though. So, if I were DM, but (God forbid) hadn't actually discussed a code of conduct? Probably going to require an Atonement. Since I prefer to play 4e, where Paladin power is a matter of investiture and not constant divine nannying, nothing would directly impact the character's abilities, but the character would get some clear signs that something was wrong. Let's say it's a Paladin of Pelor (allowing adaptation for any other deity, e.g. Bahamut would use draconic imagery rather than solar). He has a dream of a beautiful, sunny day, suddenly darkened by an eclipse--with the sun turned to blood, which then changes and refocuses to a droplet of blood falling from his own sword, freshly pulled from the ogre woman. If it is completely ignored--e.g. the character doesn't do or say anything about it for a couple of days--then it becomes his dream every time he sleeps. If he visits a temple of Pelor, a meaningful sign might occur, like clouds covering the skylight as he walks through its beam and clearing as soon as he leaves it, and whatever other "clearly Pelor is not happy" signals I could give (and I would expressly state "these signs are well-known to signify Pelor's displeasure with one of his faithful").

Should these warnings also be ignored, then the next time they're in a large town or small city, a priest of Pelor's church would seek him out and explain "my son, Pelor has sent me to you--I know not why, only that you are in need of guidance. Have you anything to confess?" If even this situation--a priest explicitly saying "Pelor wants you to atone" (though probably in different words)--doesn't get some change out of him, the next encounter would not be so nice. Avengers--Pelor's rarely-used and even more rarely-seen internal police--would come and request that he accompany them, peacefully, into the Temple's custody so that he can atone in the eyes of their shared deity. If he resists, they would attack to subdue (non-lethal damage only), and would intentionally try to refrain from attacking anyone else (only the minimum for self-defense); he would then be held at the Temple until he agreed to seek Atonement. Should he escape the Avengers sent to detain him, he would be marked as deviating from the faith, and further, better-armed and better-prepared parties would be sent after him (as time allows); although all his powers would remain (again, 4e) he would be classified as a Fallen Paladin, and any beings sensitive to the spiritual world would, eventually, be able to detect it.

Of course, this only outlined the "worst case" scenario, with all attempts at him giving in willingly roundly refused. Ideally the initial dream would be enough, or at least the "obvious signs of displeasure." Should the Paladin accept that Atonement must be made, either an official of the church would assign an appropriate penance (along with accepting personal penance on the Paladin's behalf), or Pelor himself would provide instructions (in one form or another) on what kind of penance would do. Since the act was nominally for a good cause (punishing past crimes) but was done in the wrong way and at the wrong time, the penance could be:

- having to help the victim(s) (or relatives thereof, if dead) of someone else engaging in "vigilante justice"
- having to actually take the judgment-seat on crimes of difficult, thorny character with few clear answers
- getting sent to a specific place on a specific day, where the consequences of his action will unfold

Essentially, each of them is an attempt to make him face (a) the complexity of the situation, (b) the fact that such judgments are better left to officials and their finer ability to discern the facts, (c) the pain and suffering such rash, "vigilante justice" can cause both in the victims and the perpetrators, and (d) the realization that, while his choice certainly granted vengeance for deeds done, it was not justice, and would simply perpetuate the cycle of hate and violence rather than ending it. If the Paladin comes out of it stronger in the faith, a wiser man, awesome. If he comes out of it thinking "why the eff did I become a Paladin of Pelor," that's awesome too--because now we can address the crisis of faith that comes of it. Perhaps it is proof that he was seduced by high-minded rhetoric while training in the temple, but has a far too pragmatic outlook when push comes to shove. Perhaps it will be complex and difficult, something he struggles with for the rest of his life--being truly faithful to Pelor, while not actually agreeing with Pelor. Perhaps he will defect to a different faith, such as Kord, Avandra, or Erathis.

---

However, let's say instead that this was my own Paladin, whom I play in a Dungeon World game. I have an oath spelled out--I could get you the document, but it's longer than is really appropriate for pasting here (multiple paragraphs) and you probably don't care about the exact details. Suffice it to say that it is specific enough to have something to say about situations of this kind. Not specifically this situation, but "conflicts of law and good" etc. Something vaguely like it (though with a less-explicitly villainous victim) even happened in play.

My character would need to atone. His deity would clearly express his disappointment; my character as a palpable link to his deity (Bahamut) and thus does not need words or a sending to understand that something is wrong. The exact nature of the atonement would vary, but the one I had to do (for dishonorably slaying a fleeing opponent) involved a not-insignificant threat, as well as having to face this threat without the benefit of his spells. (My undead-killing sword, on the other hand, still worked just fine! :p) In this case, it was a "you took a life you did not need to; now you must risk your own even though you don't have to" kind of deal. It actually spawned an interesting in-character theological discussion, albeit a brief one, and has formed a new cornerstone of the character's perspective on the divine. (His story has, essentially, involved a good deal of his own slow ascent to apotheosis, though he himself would see it more as...each struggle in a child's life is it learning to stand on its own, and the more he learns, the more he sees Bahamut as a stern but compassionate "father.")
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
The paladin should have done what was RIGHT, no expedient.

He should not have agreed/entered into a deal with an Evil creature in the first place. I would probably go so far as to say he should have refused to adventure with people insisting he should...let alone using a magical sword that [apparently?] he/they know were created by evil beings and wanted for future evil purposes.

The slaying of the captive was wrong. She should have been slain on their first meeting. And the deal never struck.

He should have already begun losing his powers from the moment the party walked away with that sword and ANY "deal" with evil beings in place.

But, as with all things paladinic, and as I stated above, it's up to the table and that's how things would go in my game. Not willing to play/adhere to the strict ethical/moral code? That's fine. Don't play a paladin...and don't expect to keep your paladinic goodies if you do and ignore your moral and ethical obligations and duties. Being a paladin is not up for negotiation. This guy broke the proverbial "rules" (in at least one way, if not 3). You understand/are conscious of that and atone for it or you become a fighter. Period.
 

N'raac

First Post
The slaying of the captive was wrong. She should have been slain on their first meeting. And the deal never struck.

So let's ignore the deal - let's assume they came across first the town, then the staked-out witch. She is evil, and he can detect evil. is it OK to cut her down? Is it mandatory?

No deals with evil beings. How does one accomplish that when there may be perfectly law-abiding, but evil, members of the nobility, merchants, etc. in the civilized world?

Pretty much every mythological pantheon has at least one Evil member - I guess no deities can maintain Paladin levels as they make deals with evil Pantheon members.

Now, if the game world is designed around the presumption that the Paladin may never compromise with an evil being, and we make Evil with a capital 'E', not just a selfish merchant, this could work in a given game. However, it would mean building in an option in any scenario for an action acceptable to the Paladin to be successful. The Paladin's Dilemma, where no action satisfies the requirements imposed on the Paladin exists (eg. you must obey all laws of the land, and slay evil wherever you find it - that guy is evil so killing him would be murder and sparing him allows evil to live, so you lose your Paladin status whatever you do) should not be present. That may describe your game world - the possibility is why I note we need background on the specific game.

It's always amazing when GM's complain that their players not following the standards of the genre (eg. the Paladin compromises his moral code; the starship captain is unwilling to sacrifice himself for his crew; the Superhero never exercises restraint - numerous examples exist across all genres), but don't recognize that those genre standards also include success coming from following those standards (the Paladin's mercy is repaid with loyalty, not betrayal; the Captain finds a way to win after surrendering himself to the enemy to protect his crew; the Superhero's restraint is not followed by a gleeful cackle as the enemy knocks him out with one blow, or slaughters an innocent bystander). Paladins are a fantastic example - if the game world is stacked against him, just tell the players "no Paladins in this game" rather than grinding them into the dirt through a world where abiding by their principals will always mean failure, if it is possible at all.
 

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