Tharizdun is the big bad of the entirety of D&D in my opinion. I see him as the worst possible threat; If not bound he'd end the entirety of the multiverse. So he has proxies and pawns such as the elemental princes and the demon lords to wreak enough havoc to weaken the foundation of reality enough so that he can be freed.
Lets look at the guy's rap sheet.
- Created the Abyss
- Manipulates Mortals and demons from an inter dimensional prison in which he is literally phased out of reality, but is some how still able to occasionally interact with mortals and other creatures.
- A god so heinous and terrible that the other gods literally wiped all mention of him from existence for fear of him returning.
- Was confronted by all of the early gods (Both evil and good) to stop him from destroying the multiverse in a cataclysmic battle, which the result of said battle was his imprisonment in voidharrow BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT KILL HIM, it was beyond their powers.
As epic evil outsiders go.....not much worse than Tharizdun, at least imo.
UnknownDyson, thank you for your thoughts on the big T. I don't disagree that Tharizdun is often considered the big bad in D&D lore. However, he has never had any stats as far as I can tell. I do currently have him at CR 40, which is the highest possible for a god. I just think he will have gotten weaker while imprisoned (that is probably the intent anyway), that is why I am thinking of dropping him down.
Now his lore in pre-4e is, from what I can tell, mostly whispers in the dark. He seems more like a schemer than a front line brute. That doesn't make you all powerful CR wise, but could make you a serious threat to the Cosmos nontheless. I don't know a lot about him pre-4e. If you do, any info would be helpful.
Now in 4e (which is what you seem to be referencing), we get a bit more information. But let's dig a little deeper into your points (my quotes and info are mostly from the 4e Demonomicon, pages 7-9).
- Created the Abyss: All Tharizdun did was plant the seed of evil, created by the Obyriths. It is also noted that Tharizdun was "hungry for power" as he did not have the power he needed to rule the gods. The shard gave him more power, but it also corrupted him from the influence of the Obyriths (and released the Obyriths), and drove him insane. Furthermore it is noted that the shard gave Tharizdun great power, "..far more power than the obyriths could ever have predicted." Thus, ultimately a great deal of his might comes from the shard. Thus, without the shard = not so strong.
-Manipulate Mortals and demons (and elementals & primordials): yes, this is pretty consistent through all editions. However, it is also noted that he could not sway the most powerful demon lords and "...rather than risk defeat in single combat, Tharizdun strove to marshal the power of the Elemental Chaos and its denziens..." So again, he is more of a schemer and tactician (warlord) than a front line fighter. It is also noted that the most power followers joined his cause because they wanted revenge for the meddling of the gods in the creation of the world.
-Wiped his name from the records: This is true, but this doesn't tell us much about him. It seems to be as much for his madness and his desire to destroy the cosmos (thought that doesn't really seem to be his motivation in 4e - he wants to rule, not destroy). Doesn't really tell us much.
- Was confronted by all the gods and imprisoned, but still influential: Several items here, he fought the gods, but it wasn't just Tharizdun vs. all the gods. Tharizdun had an army of elementals and primordials fighting the gods as he wished to claim the Astral Sea. This was the start of the Dawn War. In fact, it is even mentioned that it his lieutenant was primordial, Miska the Wolf Spider, and after Tharizdun was captured Miska continued the fight against the gods. It was Miska and the Queen of Chaos that nearly defeated the gods, not Tharizdun. My point here is that Tharizdun was able marshal a powerful army that he
needed to take on the gods. He could not do it alone.
Unfortunately the fact that he can influence events outside his prison doesn't tell us a lot about him. We simply don't know if this is something exceptional for a god or not. Again, drawing on my experience with mortal prisons, I would suggest it is not.
Also, it should be noted that in the 4e lore, the gods didn't even realize they could be killed until around about the Dawn War (I believe this is from the article on Bane in Dragon), so it may not have even crossed their minds to do anything but imprison him. In addition, several primordials were not killed but imprisoned instead during the Dawn War. It took 3 gods to imprison Mual-Tar and it is level 35, the same as Tiamat in 4e.
Finally, it is also good to remember that Asmodeus and Orcus took a fragment of the Shard and each used it to kill a god. Asmodeus was only an angel at the time. So clearly the shard is very powerful.
So, after reviewing all this information, I am actually more convinced that I need to reduce him in power. Unless you have some more concrete information from earlier editions, I just don't see a justification for him being higher, especially without the power from the Shard of Evil. I actually now think CR 37 might be his top end without the shard and he could be even lower after being in prison for eons.
So do you still think Tharizdun should be a higher CR, and if so why? I am open to moving him (I already did once), I just need evidence/arguments for why.
. I'm think CR 36 or 37.
