(5e) IMMORTAL RULES

dave2008

Legend
Just an idea, but perhaps consider adding another table to the Epic Weapons for dexterity based characters? As it stands right now, an epic fighter is useless if he isn't using strength since the strength weapons completely outclass any dexterity weapons by a long shot.

I'd imagine the table could use the exact same format and that the weapons would just be lighter and sharper rather than harder and heavier? Maybe less base damage but more critical strike chance or something? Also to balance out the AC bonus you get automatically from dexterity. You don't want dexterity outshining strength but you also don't want dexterity fighters to never be able to properly use an epic weapon.

Just my 2 cents!

Sorry I missed your post for so long! Yes that is something to consider, but to be honest I am not sure what, if anything, I am going to do about it. After I finish up the first drafts of my epic monsters I am going to be spending some more time with this thread to flesh out some of these ideas (and to get ready for the 2nd draft of my monsters). Off the top of my head I don't like the idea that it would be the same as the strength table, but I haven't thought about much. Another problem is I have some bias against Dex based fighters that I need to overcome :(

It something I will definitely have to consider when I get back to this thread.
 

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dave2008

Legend
Before I knew of this thread, I made my own epic boons. This was partly because I thought the boons from the DMG were kinda limited. I know you already made your own boon system, but perhaps you can draw some inspiration from the boons I made.

Boons:
...

Wow thank you for sharing. Many of these are similar to one that I have (or are in the DMG), but you have a lot of interesting ideas here. I will definitely consider adding some of them when I get back to working on this thread. Thank you again for sharing your ideas!
 



synergy2

First Post
What are these the "Phantom of Terror" and "Phantom of Bliss" ?

"Phantasm
13th-level Elder Illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Plane, see text
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 day
Prerequisite: CR 40
Cost: 80 QP (permanent)
You reach out with your mind and brush aside the veil or reality, releasing the power of Phantasm. You create a phantasmic reality in the minds of all creatures in range. Tapping into their greatest fears and deepest desires to beguile and frighten as you see fit. All creatures on the plane of existence that you are on are afflicted by a phantasm of your choice from any of the ones described below. Creatures above CR 25 may attempt an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throw. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws the duration is reduced by half. If it succeeds on all its saving throws the duration is reduced to 1 round.

Phantasm of Terror. ???

Phantasm of Bliss. ???


Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. "
 

dave2008

Legend
"Phantasm
13th-level Elder Illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Plane, see text
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 day
Prerequisite: CR 40
Cost: 80 QP (permanent)
You reach out with your mind and brush aside the veil or reality, releasing the power of Phantasm. You create a phantasmic reality in the minds of all creatures in range. Tapping into their greatest fears and deepest desires to beguile and frighten as you see fit. All creatures on the plane of existence that you are on are afflicted by a phantasm of your choice from any of the ones described below. Creatures above CR 25 may attempt an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throw. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws the duration is reduced by half. If it succeeds on all its saving throws the duration is reduced to 1 round.

Phantasm of Terror. ???

Phantasm of Bliss. ???


Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. "

Yikes! I completely forgot about those. I haven't figure them out yet, that is why they are blank. I am wrapping up the 1st drafts of my Epic Monster Updates (just about a half dozen to go) and then I will spend some more time on this Epic Character thread.
 

Foxydono

First Post
Hi Dave,

We are currently playing with your epic boon system, but we made a few changes. I think the changes are something you might want to consider yourself.

The main thing we changed is regarding the 'epic might' boon. This feat is almost mandatory, because you either do half damage (at least as melee) or you don't do damage at all when facing a greater God. Given the huge amount of benefits it gives (AC, saving throws, ability checks, spell DC, damage, etc.) and the fact that you can take legendary actions boon, every character wants/needs this. Therefore, you will most likely spend the first 30-40 points on it instead of taking more flavorful feats. The second problem with the feat is that you need either a high Con or Cha. This makes it much more attractive for charisma-based characters. Even if you just say it scales of only Con, some characters want the option to play a glass canon and because this feat is so mandatory, you basically force someone to invest their points into Constitution. The third and final problem is that taking this boon is better for melee characters as you can overcome resistances and do full damage, but this is not the case for casters as they are limited in both the spells they can cast due to immunity and the spell resistance. We 'fixed' the above three problems in the following manner:

The epic boon feat can only be taken at the following levels (20, 25, 30, 35 and 40). The first time you take the feat is costs 2 QP and the other times 1 QP. You could change the QP cost as you see fit of course. Every character will want to take it at some point, but it doesn't cost that many QP so you are able to get other feats in between. At level 40 you'll be able to fight greater Gods on even grounds, which should be the idea around this level anyway. This also takes care of the ability score problem. We thought about making it 'you need X in your primary stat, but this makes it even more attractive to take and making it scale with Con (which is no primary stat of any class) still makes it much more beneficial for say barbarians and fighters than for shape shifting druids. Making it available at a certain level therefor seems like a more fair way of handling it.

For casters we adjusted the following: taking the epic boon feat also overcomes resistances against spell damage in the same manner it does melee damage. So if you have the 5th epic boon feat at level 40, you'll be able to bypass resistance to spell damage v. Gods. Since this is the same for melee it seems fair. Also, we changed the spell immunity a bit of Gods. Casters are quite limited in their spell selection if they can only cast 9th level or higher spells on a God. We also tried to fix this with epic might. Every level of epic might, reduces the spell immunity of a God by 1. So if a God is immune to 8th level spells or lower and you have the 5th epic might feat, it is than only immune to 3rd level spells and lower cast by you.

This makes it a bit more balanced for casters/melee and you will have some free QP to spend on other boons.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hi Dave,

We are currently playing with your epic boon system, but we made a few changes. I think the changes are something you might want to consider yourself.

The main thing we changed is regarding the 'epic might' boon. This feat is almost mandatory, because you either do half damage (at least as melee) or you don't do damage at all when facing a greater God. Given the huge amount of benefits it gives (AC, saving throws, ability checks, spell DC, damage, etc.) and the fact that you can take legendary actions boon, every character wants/needs this. Therefore, you will most likely spend the first 30-40 points on it instead of taking more flavorful feats. The second problem with the feat is that you need either a high Con or Cha. This makes it much more attractive for charisma-based characters. Even if you just say it scales of only Con, some characters want the option to play a glass canon and because this feat is so mandatory, you basically force someone to invest their points into Constitution. The third and final problem is that taking this boon is better for melee characters as you can overcome resistances and do full damage, but this is not the case for casters as they are limited in both the spells they can cast due to immunity and the spell resistance. We 'fixed' the above three problems in the following manner:

The epic boon feat can only be taken at the following levels (20, 25, 30, 35 and 40). The first time you take the feat is costs 2 QP and the other times 1 QP. You could change the QP cost as you see fit of course. Every character will want to take it at some point, but it doesn't cost that many QP so you are able to get other feats in between. At level 40 you'll be able to fight greater Gods on even grounds, which should be the idea around this level anyway. This also takes care of the ability score problem. We thought about making it 'you need X in your primary stat, but this makes it even more attractive to take and making it scale with Con (which is no primary stat of any class) still makes it much more beneficial for say barbarians and fighters than for shape shifting druids. Making it available at a certain level therefor seems like a more fair way of handling it.

For casters we adjusted the following: taking the epic boon feat also overcomes resistances against spell damage in the same manner it does melee damage. So if you have the 5th epic boon feat at level 40, you'll be able to bypass resistance to spell damage v. Gods. Since this is the same for melee it seems fair. Also, we changed the spell immunity a bit of Gods. Casters are quite limited in their spell selection if they can only cast 9th level or higher spells on a God. We also tried to fix this with epic might. Every level of epic might, reduces the spell immunity of a God by 1. So if a God is immune to 8th level spells or lower and you have the 5th epic might feat, it is than only immune to 3rd level spells and lower cast by you.

This makes it a bit more balanced for casters/melee and you will have some free QP to spend on other boons.

Thank you for trying it out and the insightful commentary. I just wrapped up my first drafts of the 5e Epic Monsters and will be getting back to this thread over the next few months. One on the major changes will be to "epic might." Not just the boon in particular, but the whole concept from which it was spawned. I will be replacing it with Epic Ranks. I am not entirely sure how this will be implemented, but I believe it will address many of the problems you have discovered. I will be sure to review your comments as I work on these Epic Character concepts in the near future. Thank you again for your time and insight - it is very helpful!
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The problem with older edition epic rules is that they make the fighter fightier, the rogue rougier and the wizard wizardier.

Which wrecks bounded accuracy. That is, no matter the edition, "epic" has always meant "broken math".

I really think 5E has an opportunity to break away from the old broken model, and instead go for something that doesn't just make your bonuses bigger.
 

dave2008

Legend
The problem with older edition epic rules is that they make the fighter fightier, the rogue rougier and the wizard wizardier.

Which wrecks bounded accuracy. That is, no matter the edition, "epic" has always meant "broken math".

I really think 5E has an opportunity to break away from the old broken model, and instead go for something that doesn't just make your bonuses bigger.

I am thinking along the same lines (a big reason for the future 2nd draft of my Epic Monsters ). I think I can solve some of that with Epic Ranks. I hope to have some more concrete ideas posted in a month or 2. There will be some bigger bonuses, but I am hoping to avoid the broken math in my current epic monsters.
 
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