How many people do you know who haven't switched to 5e, and why haven't they?

innerdude

Legend
Thanks everyone, that's quite helpful.

It looks like another category that has come up in the discussion is:
4) They aren't ready (haven't finished a current campaign, waiting for the system to mature)

Also:
5) The've moved on from D&D

I didn't really focus on 5, because that's a whole different thing. I personally love trying and playing a variety of non-D&D games. I'm mainly thinking from the perspective of "what do you play when you play D&D?" I'm counting Pathfinder and retroclones in that mix, but not much else. (I don't know much about 13th Age, but the impression that I get is that it doesn't easily fit into the D&D family of games.)

Well, I don't know if it's a "totally different thing," but it's exactly where I am right now. I'm just completely off the D&D bandwagon in any form. That said, if I were to choose a preferred "version" of D&D to play or GM, it would probably be either 5e or Fantasy Craft . . . . but the actual D&D game itself is probably somewhere around 8th or 9th down the list of games I'd prefer playing or GM-ing.

The games in front of any variety of D&D for me:

  1. Savage Worlds
  2. The One Ring
  3. Night's Black Agents
  4. Fate Core
  5. Burning Wheel
  6. Firefly
  7. Star Wars Force and Destiny
  8. Runequest
  9. Star Wars d6

And even then, I'm pretty sure if I was going to try a d20/D&D variant at all, it would pretty much be a tossup if I wanted to go with Fantasy Craft first or 5e. I think 5e might have a slight lead, but still...... That's like trying to decide between your 9th and 10th favorite ice cream flavors. Once you're past #6, does it really make any difference?

Number 4 is an interesting one, because it's something that should change in the next couple of years. In that time, most of those who aren't looking into 5e will have finished up with what they have going on. They may or may not go for 5e, but at least 4 will mostly be off the table.
I'd say the love of the greater granularity/crunchiness/tactical possibilities/character options of 3e or 4e is probably halfway between #2 and it's own category.

So it makes me wonder how the demographics are breaking down. I correctly guessed that fans of D&D in general would adopt it, as well as going over well with pre-3e fans. But I had also expected a lot of non-diehard 3.5e/Pathfinder players to adopt it (perhaps "adopt" is a better term than "switch to"). The anecdotes don't appear to be supporting that prediction. It might be reason #4 that is holding that group back. I think what howandwhy99 said about not wanting to lose particular things one has is a bigger deal with the 3e-4e crowd than the older edition fans, and that may also play into it. One thought that occurs to me is that perhaps there is a lot higher percentage of die-hards in the 3e/Pathfinder fan-base than I had expected.

Again, thanks for the participation, and feel free to continue sharing thoughts.

Not surprising to me at all, considering that Paizo has consistently gathered good will from its customers over the past 5-6 years, and WotC has not, up until the 5e release. Plus, clearly 5e and Pathfinder are serving very different audiences, those who prefer heavy crunch versus those who don't.
 

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gentle_songbird

First Post
My group plays 4e. I like the way the combat works. I have a couple of players that prefer the almost board game type feel of 4e. 3e was just too complex for them. I agree that 4e does play different than the other editions, but I personally don't mind the change. Not sure if we may consider 5e when are campaign is done, but that means investing in new books and such that I can't do right now.
 

I have a couple of players that prefer the almost board game type feel of 4e. 3e was just too complex for them.

See, I originally played 2nd edition. So when I switched from 2nd to 3rd, I actually thought it simplified things a lot. This was originally what held us back as well. We were afraid that 3rd edition got rid of too many of the details in 2nd edition. But it didn't take long for me to realize just how little I missed all of those countless saves (rod/staff/wand) and the confusing Thac0 and reverse armor class system.

To me, 3rd edition was the first system that made sense. And 5th edition, from what I've seen of it, does not stray too far from 3rd edition. They simplified some of the things, such as advantage/disadvantage, and inspiration, which are welcome changes. But they've also over complicated things, by again going back to more saves, where as the three saves in 3rd edition worked just fine. Seriously, do we need a charisma save and an intelligence save? I think I'll stick with the reflex, constitution and willpower save. Those seem to cover everything just fine. Some of the combat seems better balanced in 5th edition. Armor class, hit points and attack power don't seem to get quite as much out of hand as they do in 3rd edition at higher levels.

So I definitely see the positives and the negatives of 5th edition. But I just have so many books for 3rd edition and Pathfinder... I like not having to be confined to just WotC books. The more publishers the better.
 

pemerton

Legend
Paizo has consistently gathered good will from its customers over the past 5-6 years, and WotC has not, up until the 5e release.
I think you have to be careful with this sort of claim.

I was a customer of WotC during the 4e era, and WotC consistently gathered good will from me, in the sense that it published useful stuff for the game at wanted to play, and sold it to me at reasonable prices. I get the sense that many 4e players had a similar view.

I think by "customers" of WotC you mean potential customers, or perhaps D&D players. WotC is very different in this respect from Paizo: no one would think of me as a "customer" of Paizo, because I've played very little 3E and no 3.5 or PF (I have 3E books on my shelf, but for adaptation to other systems) - even though I'm a 30+ year RPGer who still tries to get a game in every fortnight to three weeks. Whereas plenty of people who weren't playing 4e, or aren't playing 5e, still get labelled "customers" of WotC.

Of course, the benefit of this to WotC is revealed when they start selling a product which those potential customers are interested in buying - they leap almost effortlessly to the front of the RPG market pack.

The games in front of any variety of D&D for me:

5. Burning Wheel​
Have you been playing any BW? My campaign is about 8 or 9 sessions in.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
Well, I don't know if it's a "totally different thing," but it's exactly where I am right now. I'm just completely off the D&D bandwagon in any form. That said, if I were to choose a preferred "version" of D&D to play or GM, it would probably be either 5e or Fantasy Craft . . . . but the actual D&D game itself is probably somewhere around 8th or 9th down the list of games I'd prefer playing or GM-ing.

The games in front of any variety of D&D for me:

  1. Savage Worlds
  2. The One Ring
  3. Night's Black Agents
  4. Fate Core
  5. Burning Wheel
  6. Firefly
  7. Star Wars Force and Destiny
  8. Runequest
  9. Star Wars d6

Kill the heretic, that knows not Pendragon nor plays it. :D

Rest of the list is good, differing from what I like mostly in order rather than content, but if you've any liking for King Arthur/the Matter of Britain/medieval romance then Pendragon is worth giving a try.
 

innerdude

Legend
I think you have to be careful with this sort of claim.

I was a customer of WotC during the 4e era, and WotC consistently gathered good will from me, in the sense that it published useful stuff for the game at wanted to play, and sold it to me at reasonable prices. I get the sense that many 4e players had a similar view.

I think by "customers" of WotC you mean potential customers, or perhaps D&D players. WotC is very different in this respect from Paizo: no one would think of me as a "customer" of Paizo, because I've played very little 3E and no 3.5 or PF (I have 3E books on my shelf, but for adaptation to other systems) - even though I'm a 30+ year RPGer who still tries to get a game in every fortnight to three weeks. Whereas plenty of people who weren't playing 4e, or aren't playing 5e, still get labelled "customers" of WotC.

Of course, the benefit of this to WotC is revealed when they start selling a product which those potential customers are interested in buying - they leap almost effortlessly to the front of the RPG market pack.

Fair enough. There's certainly a distinction to be made of how we define "customer" in this instance, or "customer" versus "potential customer." But can anyone realistically look at D&D in the hands of Wizards of the Coast between the release of 4e in 2008 and the release of 5e in 2014 and not include the word "tumultuous" in the description?

From the critical backlash against 4e from a broad swath of the fanbase, to the yanking of PDFs even from existing clients who had already paid for them on legitimate digital distribution sites, to the misguided marketing, to the GSL release fiasco alienating third-party publishers, to the massively over-promised and under-delivered virtual tabletop, to the pulling of the character builder behind the paid web application wall, to the "We still can't figure out what they were trying to do even 5 years later" release of the Essentials line.......

I appreciate that you individually felt a warm sense of regard for the products Wizards was producing during that time period. But any honest outside viewer can easily argue that 2008-2014 was not a time period of positive customer outreach for WotC. Even vocal proponents of 4e decried the approaches taken for the character builder, VTT, and the overall quality of adventures.

Is it possible that this narrative is overstated in its effect? Possibly, but on the whole you'd have to be looking at it through some pretty skewed glasses to say that it's inaccurate.

To be sure, you could also include the positive descriptor of "innovative" in terms of the rules. Whether 4e worked in the marketplace or not, it certainly brought about some unique thought advances around RPGs as a whole. I personally owe a great debt to 4e, as the change from 3e to 4e was the impetus for me to really begin questioning some of my deeply held assumptions about why I played RPGs at all, and how an RPG system can facilitate or hinder the gameplay style I want to engender in my groups.


Have you been playing any BW? My campaign is about 8 or 9 sessions in.

Sadly no! And truthfully, I'd love to pick your brain on how you got your group to adopt it, and to really dig in to the rules "crunch" to get it going. I'd be absolutely gung-ho to dive in and GM it for my group, but I know for a fact they'd look at the density of the rule book and blanche.

I absolutely LOVE everything about the core assumptions of play outlined in the system. I just have to figure out how to get my group to play it. B-)
 

innerdude

Legend
Kill the heretic, that knows not Pendragon nor plays it. :D

Rest of the list is good, differing from what I like mostly in order rather than content, but if you've any liking for King Arthur/the Matter of Britain/medieval romance then Pendragon is worth giving a try.

I've heard TONS of good things about Pendragon but have never been able to find a copy of it anywhere to preview it! And I adore Arthurian myth and medieval romance. I've just started reading Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle and I LOVE it, and have read Once and Future King several times throughout my life.

I also thought of something else too----If I wanted a class/level based system for traditional fantasy, I'd give a heavy look at Novus as well. The 2d10 exploding/imploding dice mechanic seems way more interesting than straight-up d20.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'd love to pick your brain on how you got your group to adopt it, and to really dig in to the rules "crunch" to get it going. I'd be absolutely gung-ho to dive in and GM it for my group, but I know for a fact they'd look at the density of the rule book and blanche.

I absolutely LOVE everything about the core assumptions of play outlined in the system. I just have to figure out how to get my group to play it.
I spent a couple of years promoting it in casual conversation, as something I'd like to try when our 4e game came to an end. In fact our 4e game is still going, but over the past year or so we've had trouble making quorum for 4e and hence the BW game has started as the alternative.

Besides my own promotion of the system, key has been one of my players - who is very technically savvy and also likes intricate PC motivations/backstories - buying a copy of BW Gold and falling in love with the system.

As far as the mechanics are concerned, we rolled it out bit-by-bit. The first session or two only had versus test plus a little bit of magic. So far we've also had 3 or 4 duels of wits, 2 fights!, and 1 or 2 range and cover shoot-outs.

The biggest ongoing complexity is, in fact, tracking tests and artha expenditure for advancement. It's a book-keeping heavy system.

The other thing about the system, which is a big contrast with 4e and I suspect would be with Savage Worlds as well, is how gritty it is. A lot of checks fail, and many PCs will start with low Resources which means that the PCs will be poor and hungry. In my campaign, the result of this is that three PCs are either in debt or in service to a fourth (the elven princess, the only one with a decent Resources ability).
 



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