5e Magus Class Conversion

JValeur · Nov 15, 2015

I haven't tried the class, but I can give some feedback. My overall points:

1) Many features look really interesting. I like a lot of it.

2) I think the class intrudes too much on existing classes, namely the Wizard and the Eldritch Knight.

3) I think the class has too many 'out of flavour abilities' and could use a little more flavour.

4) I think the class is too powerful, overall.

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I'm not too organized, so I'll just give my thoughts point by point:

Main Class

Saving throws - I think Con + Int makes more sense.

Skills - It needs some more skills. Maybe Acrobatics and Perception.

Runebound Weapon - Very similar to a level 3 Eldritch Knight class feature. Not really necessary either. Maybe reflavour it a bit, so it has more uses like light etc.

Sword and Sorcery - Seems more like a feat than a fighting style, to be honest. I would rather something like this is a class feature, than a fighting style. But I like the idea.

Spell recall - Very close to a Wizard ability, and not really that 'in flavour' for the class. I would substitute this with something else.

Dispelling Strike - I kinda like this one. Not sure if it is too strong, but I like the flavor.

Spell Reflection - I think you have an error here, where it is meant to say 'or higher' in the third line. It is a very strong ability if it works as I read it. Too strong. I think it should be a check on a spell level equal or higher, and automatic failure if you use a lower slot.

Greater Spell Access - Decent I guess.

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Swordmage

Spellstrike - Very, very strong. You basically get to deal double damage each round - 2 levels before everyone gets their 2nd attack. This need to come at a higher level I think.

Spell Combat - The Eldritch Knight's level 18 ability at level 6. Way too strong.

Hindering Strikes - As the Eldritch Knight for the same level.

Spellstrike Overload - I like this one. Balanced because of the limited use, and useful, without being overpowering.

Spell Combat Mastery - So, automatic quickened spells + full attack action? And you can even use Spellstrike with the spell you cast? This is way too strong, even for a level 20 ability. Way, way too powerful.

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Arcane Archer

Imbue Arrow - I like this. Needs a limitation to Int per short rest or can't be used with cantrips, to prevent Thunderclap spam. Or remove the 'even if it normally has a range of self only'.

Seeker Arrow - Probably needs some fine tuning, but no real issues here.

Phase Arrow - I'm not really feeling it. It's not that it is too strong, it just doesn't seem necessary or flavorful.

Hail of Arrows - Steps on rangers toes. Doesn't really have anything to do with spellcasting either. Not really feeling it, although I don't feel it is too strong.

Arrow of Death - The damage dealt might need some adjusting, but the ability seems fine enough to me.

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Overall thoughts

I think you need to rebalance the main class, and then work out from there with the archetypes. You also need to decide if this is a substitute to the Eldritch Knight (and borrow a lot more from that class) or if this is a wholly different class (in which case several abilities needs to be reworked).

The Swordmage archetype needs most work, in my opinion. It seems straight up broken to me.

Good work though, I might borrow some of it

Gruzjmal · Nov 18, 2015

JValeur said:
I haven't tried the class, but I can give some feedback. My overall points:
1) Many features look really interesting. I like a lot of it.

2) I think the class intrudes too much on existing classes, namely the Wizard and the Eldritch Knight.

3) I think the class has too many 'out of flavour abilities' and could use a little more flavour.

4) I think the class is too powerful, overall.

1 - First of all, thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you like it. I'll will try to respond to some of your comments ...

2 - I agree that the class does intrude somewhat on the Eldritch Knight class and I'm okay with it intruding some, as long as it's not outright better or more powerful. I feel like the Eldritch Knight class has some good ideas, but I personally like my fighter/wizard hybrids to be more of a blend of magic and fighting instead of mostly a fighter with a few spell like abilities. As for intruding on the wizard class, I certainly want to avoid that. I don't think it intrudes too much, but I think getting rid of Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access would certainly take care of that.

3 - I plan to add flavour text at some point to the abilities, but I am assuming you are referring to the abilities themselves; in which case I agree, adding more flavour to the abilities is definitely something I would like to do. I have had a difficult time coming up with abilities that add flavour that don't seem too much like a wizard ... perhaps adding a mixture of fighter and wizard flavored abilities would work. I would definitely welcome suggestions as far as this is concerned.

4 - I'm not sure it is over-powered compared to other classes, but I can see how some of the abilities could appear that way at first glance. There are probably a few abilities that should be scaled back a bit ...

JValeur said:
Main Class
Saving throws - I think Con + Int makes more sense.
Skills - It needs some more skills. Maybe Acrobatics and Perception.

Yeah, maybe Con does make more sense. I like the idea of them having good Wis saves because of their magic training, but I think a good argument could be made for either Con or Wis. Int certainly.

I gave them the same number of skills as Paladins and Wizards get. It does make sense I think for them to have Acrobatics and Perception, but I would be worried about them having too many skills if I added both ... Maybe I should consider dropping Insight or Intimidation for Perception?

JValeur said:
Runebound Weapon - Very similar to a level 3 Eldritch Knight class feature. Not really necessary either. Maybe reflavour it a bit, so it has more uses like light etc.

It is similar and actually a little bit better. This ability is somewhat of a throw back to the original magus class (from Pathfinder) and the Swordmage (from 4e). I imagine that was the intent with the Eldritch Knight version as well, but I wouldn't mind reflavouring it a bit or replacing it if necessary.

JValeur said:
Sword and Sorcery - Seems more like a feat than a fighting style, to be honest. I would rather something like this is a class feature, than a fighting style. But I like the idea.

Hmmm, I actually did have this as part of the Swordmage archetype at one point. I do feel like there should be some kind of fighting style that is specific to fighting with one weapon and no shield, but I don't think it would hurt to tie this into an archetype again.

JValeur said:
Spell recall - Very close to a Wizard ability, and not really that 'in flavour' for the class. I would substitute this with something else.
Greater Spell Access - Decent I guess.

Yeah, I think both of these should probably be removed so not to intrude on the wizard. 'Spell Recall' was originally a Magus ability that allowed you to recall one spell you had already cast as a quick action. I might change it back to something like that, but it would definitely be a once per long rest thing and probably only up to a 3rd level spell slot or something ... I might just replace it.

JValeur said:
Dispelling Strike - I kinda like this one. Not sure if it is too strong, but I like the flavor.

I don't think it's too strong as it is, but I would like to reflavour it so that it makes more sense with a ranged attack, or make it a melee attack only ability. I think I might make it part of the Swordmage Archetype or reflavour it for ranged attacks.

JValeur said:
Spell Reflection - I think you have an error here, where it is meant to say 'or higher' in the third line. It is a very strong ability if it works as I read it. Too strong. I think it should be a check on a spell level equal or higher, and automatic failure if you use a lower slot.

Yes, there was a typo there. Thanks for catching that. I have considered making it limited uses and just have to roll no matter what ... . I'll consider scaling this back a bit and maybe your suggestion about limiting it to only spells that are lower level would work ... I think making it a roll on a lower level spell would be too weak though. Possibly making it a once per short rest ability or something would be also enough.

JValeur said:
Swordmage

Spellstrike - Very, very strong. You basically get to deal double damage each round - 2 levels before everyone gets their 2nd attack. This need to come at a higher level I think.

With the caveat that I forgot to re-word this so that it only works with non-cantrip spells (oops), I don't think it is too strong. It is very similar in potential damage output to a Paladins smite ability (acquired at 2nd level), except that it has more versatility (some touch spells have added effects and do less damage), has a chance of being wasted (if you miss with the attack the spell is wasted), can't be used multiple times in 1 round (like a Paladin's smite ability), and has the potential to do 1d8 more damage for the same level spell slot (with Chromatic Orb). I think it's a strong ability, but I wouldn't say it is overpowered, even at 3rd level ... as long as you can't spam it endlessly with cantrips ... that would be silly.

JValeur said:
Spell Combat - The Eldritch Knight's level 18 ability at level 6. Way too strong.

I actually think this ability isn't that amazing for an Eldritch Knight by the time they get it unless they specialize in ranged attacks. Even so, they will probably rarely use there spells since they get 3 attacks ... and then a 4th at level 20. This ability IS better for a Magus though, and it could probably be scaled back a bit since it can be used in tandem with spellstrike.

At one point I had worded it so it could only be used with a melee weapon in one hand and no weapon or shield in the other ... I might go back to that, it added some nice flavour and a restriction to help differentiate it from the Eldritch Knight version. I might also start it out as cantrips only and then upgrade it to spells later (like with the Eldritch Knight version) so that it can't be used with spellstrike right away.

JValeur said:
Hindering Strikes - As the Eldritch Knight for the same level.

I'd consider replacing this, although I think it probably has more uses for the Magus class than it does for an Eldritch Knight.

JValeur said:
Spellstrike Overload - I like this one. Balanced because of the limited use, and useful, without being overpowering.

Thanks. I stole the idea from someone else, cleaned it up and re-worded it for the Magus. I like it too. I might actually make it available at an earlier level depending on what I do with Spell Combat.

JValeur said:
Spell Combat Mastery - So, automatic quickened spells + full attack action? And you can even use Spellstrike with the spell you cast? This is way too strong, even for a level 20 ability. Way, way too powerful.

It's not quite automatic quickened spell (you still can't cast 2 spells per round). It's probably a bit too strong though, even with a fighter getting 4 attacks at level 20. I'm not exactly sure how I would scale this one back, other than making it so that it can't be used with Spellstrike. Anyway, I'll try to put some more thought into this one.

JValeur said:
Arcane Archer

Imbue Arrow - I like this. Needs a limitation to Int per short rest or can't be used with cantrips, to prevent Thunderclap spam. Or remove the 'even if it normally has a range of self only'

Hmmm, good point about the Thunderclap spam ... I might have to take out the part about range of self. Thanks for pointing that out.

Seeker Arrow - Probably needs some fine tuning, but no real issues here.

JValeur said:
Phase Arrow - I'm not really feeling it. It's not that it is too strong, it just doesn't seem necessary or flavorful.

Fair enough. I had considered getting rid of it since its too so similar to Seeker Arrow.

JValeur said:
Hail of Arrows - Steps on rangers toes. Doesn't really have anything to do with spellcasting either. Not really feeling it, although I don't feel it is too strong.

Yeah, I was concerned about that too. I have some ideas for alternate Arcane Archer abilities, so maybe I'll work on swapping those too.

JValeur said:
Arrow of Death - The damage dealt might need some adjusting, but the ability seems fine enough to me.

The damage is the exact same as 'Finger of Death', a 7th level wizard spell, but I removed the added effect. I think it's probably fine with the limitations on it, but I did consider just making it last for one shot and still only usable once per long rest ... as it's written, the arrow can be retrieved and fired again. The damage could also be scaled back if needed to balance it.

JValeur said:
Overall thoughts

I think you need to rebalance the main class, and then work out from there with the archetypes. You also need to decide if this is a substitute to the Eldritch Knight (and borrow a lot more from that class) or if this is a wholly different class (in which case several abilities needs to be reworked).

The Swordmage archetype needs most work, in my opinion. It seems straight up broken to me.

I'll work on rebalancing the main class and swordmage archetype. As for the Eldritch Knight, I think it certainly has its place and I would prefer not to replace it entirely. I also feel like it doesn't hurt to borrow some of the abilities from it. I had considered essentially making the Swordmage a more magic focused version of the Eldritch Knight, and making a 3rd Archetype (probably called Spellblade) that expanded more on the Spellstrike feature and channeling spells through melee weapon attacks. I think I prefer this way because it makes the Swordmage a little more unique, but I sometimes feel like the other way might be better.

JValeur said:
Good work though, I might borrow some of it

Again, I just want to say thanks for taking the time to give me feedback. I'm glad you enjoyed it and of course feel free to use anything you like. Some of the ideas here were taken from others online and part of the reason I posted this was to share my own ideas.

Any additional feedback or comments on my response to your feedback would be appreciated.

JValeur · Nov 18, 2015

Gruzjmal said:
Yeah, maybe Con does make more sense. I like the idea of them having good Wis saves because of their magic training, but I think a good argument could be made for either Con or Wis. Int certainly.

A case can arguably be made for both, but I like a character that is halfway Wizard, halfway Fighter, to have a save from both worlds. It's a minor thing, though, since Wisdom and Constitution are roughly equally good saving throws.

Gruzjmal said:
I gave them the same number of skills as Paladins and Wizards get. It does make sense I think for them to have Acrobatics and Perception, but I would be worried about them having too many skills if I added both ... Maybe I should consider dropping Insight or Intimidation for Perception?

I don't think it's a big problem, but if you wanted too, I guess you could drop insight. Then again, I don't think it breaks anything.

Gruzjmal said:
On Runebound Weapon
It is similar and actually a little bit better. This ability is somewhat of a throw back to the original magus class (from Pathfinder) and the Swordmage (from 4e). I imagine that was the intent with the Eldritch Knight version as well, but I wouldn't mind reflavouring it a bit or replacing it if necessary.

Exactly. But I think you should decide to either just take this from the Eldritch Knight class and copy it word for word, or make it some sort of gimmick sword, that basically gives you some free cantrips when you wield it. Perhaps: light (as you have already),
blade ward, message and true strike. Or something like that.

Gruzjmal said:
On Sword and Sorcery
Hmmm, I actually did have this as part of the Swordmage archetype at one point. I do feel like there should be some kind of fighting style that is specific to fighting with one weapon and no shield, but I don't think it would hurt to tie this into an archetype again.

I get you. But I think duelist or archery does that already. My problem is also mainly with the +1 to attack part, the other part is good and in flavor.[/quote]

Gruzjmal said:
On Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access
Yeah, I think both of these should probably be removed so not to intrude on the wizard. 'Spell Recall' was originally a Magus ability that allowed you to recall one spell you had already cast as a quick action. I might change it back to something like that, but it would definitely be a once per long rest thing and probably only up to a 3rd level spell slot or something ... I might just replace it.

I like that. Maybe you can even tie it up to something like being in the fray, to merge the fighter/wizard thing. Like 'when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you may choose one expended spell slot to recover as a bonus action, bla bla'. Or something similar. Still with limitations, of course - like once per long rest.

Gruzjmal said:
Dispelling Strike
I don't think it's too strong as it is, but I would like to reflavour it so that it makes more sense with a ranged attack, or make it a melee attack only ability. I think I might make it part of the Swordmage Archetype or reflavour it for ranged attacks.

I think moving this to the Swordmage Archetype is a good idea.

Gruzjmal said:
Spell Reflection
Yes, there was a typo there. Thanks for catching that. I have considered making it limited uses and just have to roll no matter what ... . I'll consider scaling this back a bit and maybe your suggestion about limiting it to only spells that are lower level would work ... I think making it a roll on a lower level spell would be too weak though. Possibly making it a once per short rest ability or something would be also enough.

Once per short rest definitely works as well.

Gruzjmal said:
On Spellstrike
With the caveat that I forgot to re-word this so that it only works with non-cantrip spells (oops), I don't think it is too strong. It is very similar in potential damage output to a Paladins smite ability (acquired at 2nd level), except that it has more versatility (some touch spells have added effects and do less damage), has a chance of being wasted (if you miss with the attack the spell is wasted), can't be used multiple times in 1 round (like a Paladin's smite ability), and has the potential to do 1d8 more damage for the same level spell slot (with Chromatic Orb). I think it's a strong ability, but I wouldn't say it is overpowered, even at 3rd level ... as long as you can't spam it endlessly with cantrips ... that would be silly.

Okay, that obviously changes things. It doesn't really affect a lof of spells on your list, then, and nerfs it automatically based on available spell slots. I'm not sure that makes me like the ability more, but it definitely make it more balanced!

Gruzjmal said:
On Spell Combat
I actually think this ability isn't that amazing for an Eldritch Knight by the time they get it unless they specialize in ranged attacks. Even so, they will probably rarely use there spells since they get 3 attacks ... and then a 4th at level 20. This ability IS better for a Magus though, and it could probably be scaled back a bit since it can be used in tandem with spellstrike.

At one point I had worded it so it could only be used with a melee weapon in one hand and no weapon or shield in the other ... I might go back to that, it added some nice flavour and a restriction to help differentiate it from the Eldritch Knight version. I might also start it out as cantrips only and then upgrade it to spells later (like with the Eldritch Knight version) so that it can't be used with spellstrike right away.

I think you need to either copy the Eldritch Knight version completely, or go in a different direction. Maybe casting a spell gives you temporary hit points or a one-round AC bonus (although that's a more defensive direction, obviously).

Gruzjmal said:
On Hindering Strikes
I'd consider replacing this, although I think it probably has more uses for the Magus class than it does for an Eldritch Knight.

You can keep that, if you wanna copy the Eldritch Knight class. If you don't, I think you should substitute it for something else. Dispelling strike would fit nicely here.

Gruzjmal said:
On Spellstrike Overload
Thanks. I stole the idea from someone else, cleaned it up and re-worded it for the Magus. I like it too. I might actually make it available at an earlier level depending on what I do with Spell Combat.

You could definitely do that. It would work well at 3rd or 6th level, albeit you have very few AoE spells to work with before Fireball.

Gruzjmal said:
On Spells Combat Mastery
It's not quite automatic quickened spell (you still can't cast 2 spells per round). It's probably a bit too strong though, even with a fighter getting 4 attacks at level 20. I'm not exactly sure how I would scale this one back, other than making it so that it can't be used with Spellstrike. Anyway, I'll try to put some more thought into this one.

It's really, really strong, I think.

I think a time-limit would benefit this one. Like 'Eldritch Fury' or 'Spellrage' and then you have a 1-minute use per short or long rest, where you get some benefits, one of which is the ability to cast spells while full-attacking. Either that, or you impose limited uses per rest, or do something else entirely, I think.

Gruzjmal said:
On Imbue Arrow
Hmmm, good point about the Thunderclap spam ... I might have to take out the part about range of self. Thanks for pointing that out.

You can easily just make it only workable with non-cantrips, that would fix it too.

Gruzjmal said:
On Phase Arrow

Fair enough. I had considered getting rid of it since its too so similar to Seeker Arrow.

Yeah. You could merge the two (if it can be done without elegantly), and then find an ability that adds some new flavor.

Gruzjmal said:
On Arrow of Death
The damage is the exact same as 'Finger of Death', a 7th level wizard spell, but I removed the added effect. I think it's probably fine with the limitations on it, but I did consider just making it last for one shot and still only usable once per long rest ... as it's written, the arrow can be retrieved and fired again. The damage could also be scaled back if needed to balance it.

You probably need to remove the retrievability thing, but otherwise I guess its fine

Gruzjmal said:
I'll work on rebalancing the main class and swordmage archetype. As for the Eldritch Knight, I think it certainly has its place and I would prefer not to replace it entirely. I also feel like it doesn't hurt to borrow some of the abilities from it. I had considered essentially making the Swordmage a more magic focused version of the Eldritch Knight, and making a 3rd Archetype (probably called Spellblade) that expanded more on the Spellstrike feature and channeling spells through melee weapon attacks. I think I prefer this way because it makes the Swordmage a little more unique, but I sometimes feel like the other way might be better.

I still think you should either decide on borrowing heavily from the Eldritch Knight class, or trying not to touch it all. It's just a canon-thing, I guess. If you borrow some, change some, and make a hybrid, it ends up feeling odd next to a PHB. You want some continuity, where your class either stands out from, or expand on, the EK class, I feel. That way it's more likely to see actual gameplay, I think. But you have a solid foundation here, and it certainly has features that makes it stand out from an Eldritch Knight class

Gruzjmal · Nov 21, 2015

JValeur said:
On Spellstrike:

Okay, that obviously changes things. It doesn't really affect a lof of spells on your list, then, and nerfs it automatically based on available spell slots. I'm not sure that makes me like the ability more, but it definitely make it more balanced!

I may actually just make this something that is obtained at 6th level and allow it to be used with cantrips. I think that's fine as long is it isn't combined with Spell Combat (at least not until later levels).

JValeur said:
On Spell Combat Mastery:

I think a time-limit would benefit this one. Like 'Eldritch Fury' or 'Spellrage' and then you have a 1-minute use per short or long rest, where you get some benefits, one of which is the ability to cast spells while full-attacking. Either that, or you impose limited uses per rest, or do something else entirely, I think.

I like this idea. I think I'll use that.

JValeur said:
On Imbue Arrow:

You can easily just make it only workable with non-cantrips, that would fix it too.

I think you may have missed something here. Imbue arrow only works with AoE spells (there are not cantrips that would work with it).

JValeur said:
I still think you should either decide on borrowing heavily from the Eldritch Knight class, or trying not to touch it all. It's just a canon-thing, I guess. If you borrow some, change some, and make a hybrid, it ends up feeling odd next to a PHB. You want some continuity, where your class either stands out from, or expand on, the EK class, I feel. That way it's more likely to see actual gameplay, I think. But you have a solid foundation here, and it certainly has features that makes it stand out from an Eldritch Knight class

I don't think borrowing features from another class archetype is a problem. There are several archetypes and main classes that share a feature (like Evasion for example). A valor bard gets the same 18th level Eldritch Knight feature (Improved War Magic) at 14th level (called Battle Magic for the Bard). I think it makes sense that another fighter/wizard hybrid class would have it too. The Bound Weapon feature is also similar to the warlock's Blade Pact feature. I got rid of the disarm thing, but kept the summoning and light part - it also only works with one weapon instead of 2 like with the Eldritch Knight feature, so I think it's fine.

Anyway, I made several changes in an effort to make it more balanced and flavourful. Hope you enjoy.

Gruzjmal · Nov 21, 2015

I've revised the class again ...

5e Magus Class Conversion

JValeur

Explorer

Gruzjmal

First Post

JValeur

Explorer

Gruzjmal

First Post

Gruzjmal

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