How Do You View The Intelligence Groups Of Eberron?

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Where's the spy angle come from - Forge of War?

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I sleep with a copy of the 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting under my pillow, so a quick look that the small entry for the order mentions that the Emerald Claw has agents placed throughout Khorvaire...

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Oh, it certainly does NOW. It's just that I see the modern order as being very different from the wartime orders like the Onyx Skull and such. Essentially, during the war it was an entirely legitimate elite military unit - one that was so successful it was getting too much recognition and influence for the seekers. Since the war it is disavowed terrorist organization that is openly controlled by someone who the world at large would consider a supervillain (bear in mind that they don't know her true identity, but they know they work for "The Queen of Death").

For me, the Emerald Claw is a lot like COBRA. They are the people who you KNOW are up to know good. And like COBRA, they are an organization with covert agents and shock troopers, with spies and soldiers. They've got spectres and wraiths, changelings pretending to be vampires, vampire assassins, and who knows what else. But again, that's a whole different thing from the elite unit that served in the war.

Now, what about BEFORE the war? Erandis hasn't been hanging out with no agents, right? Certainly true - she already had that network of priests, wizards, vampires and such built up over centuries. They just didn't have a fancy name and weren't acting so boldly. As I see it, the modern Emerald Claw is essentially Erandis taking the name and remnants of the chivalric order - which did serve with distinction during the war - and using it as a figurehead for her previously existing stealth forces, simultaneously using that name it earned during the war as a way to draw in Karrnathi patriots to use as cannon fodder in her schemes.

In any case, I think we agree as to what it's like TODAY. I just didn't see the organization called "The Order of the Emerald Claw" as being like that during the war itself. And certainly at that time, they weren't openly serving the Queen of Death; she came to them after they had been unjustly condemned by the false king.

BUT AGAIN... that's MY Eberron!

Originally posted by areleth:

Ah, well that makes sense. I assumed that Vol had been using the Claw as a direct instrument from the start. If she only started stuffing it with her personal agents after Kaius broke ties with her then I can see why it didn't have much to do with intelligence during the greater part of its involvement with the war.

Originally posted by Starsomava:

 Since the war it is disavowed terrorist organization that is openly controlled by someone who the world at large would consider a supervillain (bear in mind that they don't know her true identity, but they know they work for "The Queen of Death").

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one of the most sympathetic characters IMO is the guy who had 19 years in (assuming 20 years for retirement) in the Emerald Claw, faithfully serving his country.  Sure, he heard some rumors that the Colonel (my Eberron EC was small enough to only need a colonel in charge) was doing stuff with the necromancers between battles, but that's probably some new trick for the new guys to use after he retires.  then BAM! new king comes in, throws a hissy fit after visiting the unit, and disbands the unit and gives out a mass dishonorable discharge and charges of treason.  Now he has to lead all these fanatical loonies that can barely hold a sword without hurting themselves because he'd be executed for treason in his homeland, and tried for terrorism and war crimes anywhere else... and then he gets captured by the overzealous, purified, Aundairn PC's...  it was hard to keep that NPC alive.


Originally posted by Starsomava:

Ah, well that makes sense. I assumed that Vol had been using the Claw as a direct instrument from the start. If she only started stuffing it with her personal agents after Kaius broke ties with her then I can see why it didn't have much to do with intelligence during the greater part of its involvement with the war.

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The way i played it out, from the start the EC's necromancers were loyal to the Cult of Erandis, while the soldiers were loyal to Karrnath.  Vol had some a lot of sway in what the EC did, but then she got greedy and put a colonel in charge herself.  Kaius III came in and disbanded the unit just as Vol was starting to have the EC do something besides gain territory in Thrane/Cyre, which made it look like some naive, concessionist, pansy had just declared the most decorated unit in Karrnath traitors because they couldn't march pretty in a parade.  It's almost like Vol had planned it on purpose to make Kaius look bad in front of the rest of Karrnath.

Originally posted by Hellcow:

(my Eberron EC was small enough to only need a colonel in charge)

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Which seems reasonable to me. Again, the EC was merely one of a number of Seeker orders deployed during the war. I've used the Order of the Onyx Skull in a number of games as an order whose members were similarly disavowed but who haven't allied themselves with the Queen of Death.

One of the PCs in one of my campaigns was a paladin of the Blood of Vol. The idea for the character was that his father was a respected Karrnathi noble who served with the Emerald Claw. When Kaius turned on the order (and remember, it happened before the end of the war), the PC's father was killed by a political rival who had been looking for an excuse to seize his lands. The PC had been in a safe house prior to this, and he was smuggled away to the Lhazaar Principalities for safety; raised by Seekers; and personally contacted in visions by Erandis. She encouraged his seeker faith and emphasized how Kaius's betrayal had led to his father's death. SO, the PC's goal was to go to Stormreach - of the radar of his enemies in Khorvaire and build up influential allies that would let him go back, defeat first the man who stole his birthright, and then Kaius himself.

The thing about this is the the PLAYER knew that it wasn't this simple - that his PC was being used by Erandis, and that killing Kaius would be a terrible thing. Essentially, the vision of the character arc was that in the heroic tier he would raise support and try to kill his father's murderer; in the paragon tier he would kill Kaius - ideally, as a PC, actually by winning the support of warlords and actually taking Kaius' place afterwards, not simply smashing into the castle solo and beating him up; and in epic, it would become clear that he'd be used and he'd have to both fix the mistake and deal with Erandis herself. Again, a key point here is that he was a devoted seeker - while Erandis herself isn't.

Originally posted by Ogiwan:

Posting from work? Freaking w00t!

I think the discussion of the Emerald Claw as an intelligence organization is interesting. However, "intelligence organization" may be a bad term; "covert organization" is probably better. Nevertheless, I think it is quite possible that the EC was Karrnath's primary method of gaining covert intelligence and of executing covert (for Karrnath) action. The existence of multiple covert services in Karrnath, I think, is proof of this. At the start of the war, things are going bad for Karrnath. The EC steps in, offers its unique services, which include out-of-the-box thinking, and intelligence/covert action. Once Kaius III bans the EC, then the Warlords have to scramble to get something to fill the breach.

With that said, I think that it is entirely possible that the EC would be one of the most effective organizations at "direct action." Think about it: Thuranni makes people die "of natural causes" or a simple knife in the back. Pretty quiet. The Emerald Claw stages a raid (based from a local safehouse) and kills the hell out of the target (and probably everybody around the target). The target is dead either way. The comparison to the 75th Ranger Regiment is a very fine one, I think, in terms of battlefield roles, whereas in covert actions, the right comparison would be....well, I'm not sure, but it would be something big, loud, and powerful.

Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that perhaps Phiarlan is still following the prophecies of Aeren. That gave me an absolutely wonderful idea to explain the Shadow Schism.

Last, the thought of a Cyran intelligence network that still exists in cells is delightful. I just need to figure out how to use it. Now....what was the Queen's Bell? I swear I've heard somewhere, but I can't remember in regards to what. Was it in Forge of War as a Cyran unique unit?


Originally posted by Starsomava:

Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that perhaps Phiarlan is still following the prophecies of Aeren. That gave me an absolutely wonderful idea to explain the Shadow Schism.

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details please?


Originally posted by Ogiwan:

Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that perhaps Phiarlan is still following the prophecies of Aeren. That gave me an absolutely wonderful idea to explain the Shadow Schism.

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details please?

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I cannot, for my players may be reading my threads AT THIS VERY MOMENT! 

[sblock]Essentially, the leader of Phiarlan uncovers a prophecy stating SOMETHING. Perhaps it talks about how things will go to hell if there are 12 Houses, but ok if there are 13, or maybe something about the Paelion line. Or perhaps all of them. But, there's a Prophecy, and Phiarlan and Thuranni act on it, cloaking their cooperation in the Shadow Schism[/sblock]

Originally posted by mutedfaithe:

I think calling the EC one of the best at overt action would be a stretch. They used to be an elite military unit, but they have been disavowed and lost their legitimate backing. As such, instead of attracting the cream of the Karrnath military, they're recruiting more and more religious fanatics. It's like five members of th 75th Ranger unit getting a dishonorable discharge then going out to the wilds of Montana to start a militia. That said, there were certainly more then five members of the original EC, and the closer you get to those original members, the better they get, but as time goes on, more and more of them are no more then simple terrorists.

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I think calling the EC one of the best at overt action would be a stretch. They used to be an elite military unit, but they have been disavowed and lost their legitimate backing. As such, instead of attracting the cream of the Karrnath military, they're recruiting more and more religious fanatics.

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It depends how you present Karrnathi support of Kaius. One of the ongoing suggestions in the source material is that there are a number of warlords who disapprove of Kaius' actions and want to see him replaced. For these people, Kaius turning on the EC is one more piece of evidence that he is a tyrant who needs to be replaced: the EC served with distinction in the war, and their reward for this patriotic service is betrayal when the king no longer needs them. To these people, it's a sign that it's time for the Wynarn line to be replaced and the destiny of Karrnath and Galifar to rest in new hands.

Far from being religious fanatics, people from this path may not have any interest in the Blood of Vol at all. Remember that Erandis herself doesn't actually practice the faith of the Blood of Vol. Instead, she tells these people - themselves ambitious warlords and knights - that she will give them the power and forces they need to displace Kaius. You also have people like Garrow, who doesn't believe in Karrnath or the Blood of Vol, but is solely interested in the personal power he can acquire through the Blood of Vol - again, not unlike Erandis herself.

You can certainly limit it to religious fanatics, but there's certainly a basis for having highly skilled soldiers who believe that Kaius (and the entire Wynarn line) is an unfit leader - and that the Queen of Death will place their preferred leader on a new throne.

Originally posted by Charles_Phipps:

I play an espionage game in my games, actually.

Eberron is really unique in D&D settings by the fact that it's one of the few places where nations have a national character and there's multiple ones. Faerun has Cormyr and a few city-states. Dragonlance has Solamnia and that's it. In Eberron, you have the Big Four Nations and a bunch of other smaller ones competing.

I have done a great Dark Lanterns game where the PCs are essentially MI6 agents anachronistically fighting Dargunn terrorists, the Emerald Claw, Swords of Liberty, and so on.

The only problem for me is, really, the Reidrans. I want to play them but the Quori are supposedly such Machiavellian masterminds it seems hard to ever get them "on stage."

Originally posted by Madfox11:

Also, with the loss of a lot of their best direct action operatives to House Thuranni, Phiarlan is having trouble acting on the actionable intel they do get.

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Remember that the House of Shadows is part of Phiarlan, so while they might have lost their assassins, the thieves and sneaky characters are still there. As for the Shadow Schism being an act, I can hardly claim that since it is certainly one of the suggestions in I think the Dragon Marked book. Tying it to Aeranal is a rather simple step, especially considering the recent discussion here about Aeranel and its history