D&D 5E 'The Paladin as King': Cutting Through the Hype

Leugren said:

Really interesting, Hemlock. How do you plan to progress this build? Will you just keep taking more levels in Sorcerer, or do you have something else in mind?

Also, can you explain the comment about shield bashing with Warcaster? Do you mean that you are using your shield as an improvised weapon because you are grappling the opponent with your other hand?

Also, I infer from your post that a standard tactic for you, especially at low levels, is to move within melee range of several opponents and then use the Dodge action to make yourself really hard to hit. Anyone who tries to move around you to get at your allies would then be subject to the threat of an OA + smite? Is this true? I wonder how well the Tunnel Fighter fighting style might suit a build like this for added stickiness.

I also infer that grappling is a standard part of your combat repertoire. How often do you use it and under what circumstances?

EDIT: What would be your ideal progression for this build if you could do it all from scratch?

Click to expand...

Before I answer that question, I need to explain a couple of things about my philosophy, and an item of background:

Background: this paladin is part of a test party of iconic virtual PCs which I originally made up so that I can test encounters against something other than clones of actual PCs. (Tailoring encounters for actual PCs is unfair because then they can't benefit from any of their choices.) Also I use it to practice tactics (for both monsters and (N)PCs), memorize monster statistics, make sure I know spells without having to look them up, etc. I don't think that affects any of my conclusions but you should know that this particular paladin exists in a world where I am simultaneously the DM adversary and the character advocate--so the fights he gets in are significantly more unfair and tilted against him than any fights that my actual players' PCs get into. (The players' PCs get into fights which are tilted against the paladin and his cohorts, not against themselves. Although I scale down the difficulty in the process because my players aren't looking for the same kind of challenge in my sandbox that I'm looking for when I'm testing tactics.)

Philosophy: from an in-character perspective: when it comes to war, if you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough. The ideal fight is one where chance doesn't matter at all to the outcome. Classic example: Darkness is a hard counter (non-probabilistic) to beholder eye rays because those only work on things it can see, and it has no way to shut down Darkness except via anti-magic which is also a hard counter to its own eye rays. So fighting a beholder in Darkness is infinitely preferable to fighting it with +13 to all your saves, because saves can still fail.

However, from a DM perspective, fights with no chance of failure are boring and should be skipped over. The characters may be invested in not dying, but I'm not invested in spending table time watching a turkey shoot unfold. (I am interested in watching a turkey shoot unfold if there's a hidden factor which may cause it not to become a turkey shoot at all. E.g. you're confidently pursuing a retreating beholder through its tunnels, secure in your Darkness... when suddenly the beholder flips around and highlights you with its antimagic ray, and you realize that you've been lured into a position where you're surrounded by dozens of sneaky goblins, and now you cannot Fireball them due to antimagic.) The basic resolution mechanism of D&D is "player declares action, DM asks for die rolls if uncertainty exists in the resolution, DM narrates consequences", so there's no point playing out fights that are a foregone conclusion. You can just say, "Your plan works, and over the course of the next 36 hours you exterminate all the giant ants that come swarming out of the nest... until they stop coming. If there are any ants left they're forted up deep inside. Do you return to town to collect your reward, or venture into the nest and see what you can find?"

Therefore: when I'm developing tactical doctrine, most of the mental energy gets spent on corner-cases and unusual situation. The preferred doctrine is:

1.) If possible, attack from surprise with overwhelming force, while staying out of range of any credible counter-attack.
2.) Leverage mobility (e.g. horses or the Mobile feat) to stay out of enemy range. (Easier in 5E where so many monsters have short range, e.g. Medusa's stoning power only affects enemies within 30'.) Ideally have twice as much mobility as the enemy, or more.
3.) Stay dispersed if possible for defensive advantage against AoE threats and mobs, while still being in range to provide mutual support. Ranged weapons are key, so that if a mob is threatening one character, that character can Dodge and the others can target his attackers with no threat of retaliation to themselves, instead of being rendered irrelevant.
4.) Disadvantage helps most he who is highest on the bell curve. If you need a 17+ to hit me with an arrow, and I need a 15+ to hit you, then if we both drop prone, both of us lose damage but you lose proportionately more--so I should seek to impose disadvantage on you wherever possible even if it costs me.
5.) DPR doesn't matter in most scenarios (who cares if a fight ends in 18 seconds or 24?). What matters is operational efficiency. The rare cases where DPR does matter tend to be time-limited, e.g. "can you smash that troll before he throws a lever that drops the portcullis".

Implications for paladin: Stealth proficiency and Enhance Ability (Dex) are both important to me even though they rarely see actual play, because they're part of scenarios that I tend to skip over. Likewise the extra mobility that comes from Find Steed. My primary strategy is talk things out peaceably; my secondary strategy is to use stealth and mobility to kill things from range with Fire Bolt at zero risk; my tertiary strategy is to tank on the front lines in a choke point so that other PCs cannot be attacked; my quaternary strategy if all else fails is to either perform a DPR nova with TWF and smites (who cares if I don't have TWF style? +3 damage isn't the deal-breaker) or to immobilize enemies with grappling so that other PCs cannot be attacked, while protecting myself still with Dodge/Sanctuary/Quickened Mirror Image/etc.

In short, most of my mental energy gets spent on making sure the worst-case scenario isn't very bad.

So when I talk about grappling/shield bashing/Warcaster/Dodging, realize that those are all tactics for worse-case scenarios and not mainline strategies--but I play lots of worse-case scenarios because I want to see how far you can push PCs. The closest the party has come to disaster is when I sic'ed ten Mage Armored (AC 17) Invisible Stalkers on them from stealth while they were in downtime (e.g. paladin was unarmored) at level 11, and the stalkers attacked the lowest-AC PCs (Paladin and Lore Bard, the only healers, who both dropped about 90 HP down into single digits). It was totally unfair and I expected them to die (and so did the notional drow archmage who sent the stalkers, because what rational enemy doesn't employ overkill against his enemies when dispatching a task force?) but Wall of Force, Hypnotic Pattern, skeleton archers, and the paladin's Quickened Sanctuary (on Lore Bard) + Lay On Hands turned the tide and saved the day, much to my astonishment. So whatever the outer limits of the party's resilience are, they are further than I thought because my attempt to test them to destruction failed.

To answer your specific questions:

Shield bashing with Warcaster: yes, you understand me correctly. Using the shield as an improvised weapon. Head-butting would actually be superior because you are proficient with unarmed strikes--but Booming Blade doesn't work with unarmed strikes so you have to use a shield to get the damage boost, because your other arm is busy holding the Earth Elemental/Chuul/whatever in place.

Standard tactic to move within melee range and Dodge?: No, standard tactic is to stay out of melee range and pew-pew with Fire Bolts. The party has a crushing superiority at range on multiple levels (e.g. with or without partial cover availability). Dodging and tanking is for when the enemy is attempting to close the distance. Think of the paladin as the stone wall at Gettysburg, while the other PCs are the artillery. He's supposed to deter, delay, and degrade the enemy.

Tunnel fighter: I dislike Tunnel Fighter for breaking action economy but here are my thoughts. The paladin's main problem as a tank is that if he's in a place that's open enough for an enemy to squeeze through (i.e. no 5' chokepoint paladin can physically block), he's relying on deterrence and the threat of opportunity attacks to prevent enemies from moving past, but a d8+3 (Str 16) longsword attack is pretty weak deterrence. Warcaster + False Fetters (my refluffed Booming Blade with a non-stupid name) bumps that up to 6d8+3 total deterrence (at the opportunity cost of Shield). Tunnel Fighter would bump that up to d8+3 per opponent (at the opportunity cost of Defense style). Note that Warcaster does not combo with Tunnel Fighter by RAW, since Warcaster explicitly uses your reaction for your spellcasting, and Tunnel Fighter does not change that. RP considerations aside (which orc is going to be willing to eat that enormous attack so the others can stream past free and clear?) it requires about four enemies who are trying to break past before Tunnel Fighter outweighs Booming Blade, unless you Smite, which I'm too cheap to do except in dire emergencies. But if there are a large number of enemies who would be deterred by a weak 7.5-HP attack, who are so numerous (20+?) that the other PCs and skeleton archers can't just kill them all with cantrips and arrows immediately, another PC could just drop a Hypnotic Pattern right on the paladin's position and clean up all the moblings right there. Or use a Web if we were being cheap, which I often am. Then the paladin can clean them up with Thunderclap if there's a whole lot of them, while everyone else pew-pews the enemies stuck in the Web.

So overall, no, Tunnel Fighter doesn't look attractive to me for this build, especially because I have lots of uses for my bonus action already and don't like wasting spell points on smiting.

Final build: Originally when I first started playing 5E I intended Paladin 6/Dragon Sorc 14 for flight. Plans have changed as I've discovered synergies and learned more about 5E tactics (e.g. flight no longer seems as important as Aura of Vitality access; Improved Divine Smite at P11 no longer seems attractive now that I know it doesn't boost smite damage, whereas originally I thought it added +2d8 total radiant damage to attacks where you spend a spell slot to smite and +1d8 if you don't) and he's now studying arcane magic under the tutelage of the bardlock and necrolock with the intent of eventually learning some of the same arcane secrets they stole from Cthulhu's subconscious (to free up pressure on sorcerer spells known, get a good ranged attack, and get telepathy and improved darkvision--by 20th level, between Cthulock levels and monk Tongue of the Sun and Moon, everyone in the party will be able to participate in conversation with any intelligent creature). Final intent at level 20 is to have these stats:

Name: Cranduin the Lesser
Age: 26. Physical age: 17--thanks wild magic :-/ Solid and muscular, 5'10, 170 lb.
Background: Urchin (easygoing, loves kids, always kind)
Race: Human
Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorc 9/Cthulock 2
ST 16 DX 11 CN 16 IN 11 WS 15 CH 20, AC 21, HP 164
Defense style
Feats: Lucky, +3 CH +1 DX, Mounted Combatant, Warcaster
Metamagic: Quickened, Twinned
Skills (+6): Athletics, Stealth, Medicine, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Disguise Kit, Thieves' Tools,
Common, Elvish
Equipment: Plate Armor, Longsword, Lance, Shield, Longbow, Plate Armor, explorer's pack, Warhorse (Claudius)

Sorcerer cantrips: Prestidigitation, Fire Bolt, Mending, Blade Ward, Thunderclap
Sorcerer spells: Shield, (EoE, house ruled for sorcerers via research) Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Enhance Ability, Wall of Stone, Polymorph, Web, Animate Objects [Note: Darkness comes from Shadow Monk, so paladin doesn't need it]
Warlock cantrips: Eldritch Blast, False Fetters (Booming Blade renamed/refluffed)
Warlock spells: Expeditious Retreat, Hex, Armor of Agathys

Notable combos:
Find Steed + Mounted Combatant + Eldritch Blast for ranged kiting
Find Steed + Mounted Combatant + False Fetters for melee kiting with advantage on attack against medium creatures (Claudius moves up to enemy; Cranduin attacks with lance + False Fetters and advantage from Mounted Combatant; Claudius disengages and retreats a few feet; enemy is now Fettered in place and cannot attack back without Fetters exploding)
Find Steed + Mounted Combatant + Warcaster + False Fetters for melee stickiness (can Dodge if desired while warhorse attacks). Steed ensures that the enemy can't just outrun me, Mounted Combatant prevents steed from being attacked.
Armor of Agathys V + Find Steed = inflict twice as much damage per spell if steed is attacked
Dodge + (bonus) Shield of Faith + (reaction) Shield = instantly become nigh-unhittable
Grapple + Push Prone + Warcaster + Sanctuary + (reaction) Shield = sticky and yet nigh-unhittable
Aura of Vitality = heal any damage taken after combat is over
Warlock 2 = two free Shields or Expeditious Retreats (affects Claudius) or Cure Wounds (affects Claudius) or Sanctuaries or Shield of Faith per short rest

If I could do it over in any order, I think I would want to wind up in the same place but I would do it in this order:

Level 1: Paladin 1: human bonus feat: Warcaster
Level 2: Wild Sorcerer 1 (Shield is huge): False Fetters
Level 3-7: Paladin 2-6 (Aura is huge, steed is nice): ASI +2 CHA
Level 8-9: Warlock 1-2: Devil's Sight and a ranged attack, plus more shields
Level 10-12: Paladin 7-9: Aura of Vitality for healing, ASI +1 CHA (maxed at 20), +1 Dex (house rule makes odd scores non-useless)
Level 13-20: Wild Sorc 2-9, Mounted Combatant, Lucky

The reason I'd push the Wild Sorc levels back is because Shield is the sorcerer spell I cast most often. Having Quickened Mirror Image/Quickened Blur/Quickened Web/Twin Sanctuary in my back pocket is nice, and I don't seriously regret doing things in the order I actually did them, but having earlier access to Revivify could be important if something goes seriously wrong and the bardlock (other healer) dies, and Aura of Vitality is terrific for efficiency too, so I think P9 is more desirable than S4 at that point.

Hemlock said:

Before I answer that question, I need to explain a couple of things about my philosophy, and an item of background:

Click to expand...

Thanks, Hemlock. This post is chock full of great info. Two more quick questions for you:

1) Would you consider Storm Sorcerer from SCAG for this build? Why or why not?

2) Also, this build seems to benefit greatly from above average ability score rolls. If you were forced to use the standard point-buy method, how would you allocate the scores, and how would this affect the build? As a variant human, its impossible to start with 16 STR, 14 CON, and 16 CHA without completely dumping two other scores.

Leugren said:

Thanks, Hemlock. This post is chock full of great info. Two more quick questions for you:

1) Would you consider Storm Sorcerer from SCAG for this build? Why or why not?

2) Also, this build seems to benefit greatly from above average ability score rolls. If you were forced to use the standard point-buy method, how would you allocate the scores, and how would this affect the build? As a variant human, its impossible to start with 16 STR, 14 CON, and 16 CHA without completely dumping two other scores.

Click to expand...

RE: #1, probably not, since all of the storm sorcerer's worthwhile abilities trigger off spellcasting, which means they're automatically expensive. At least Bend Luck can be saved for only when it is going to make a difference--it's like giving everyone in your party +4-6 to their prime casting stat, since penalizing an enemy's roll by 2.5 points is equivalent to increasing your own DC by 2.5 points. Just use Bend Luck (costs your reaction) whenever it looks like an enemy is going to make his save by (what you estimate to be) 3 points or less, and it makes it as if your ally had +3 to spell DC all along. I don't see anything a Storm Sorcerer has that can compete with that. Can also be used in an emergency to penalize enemy initiative, attack rolls (on people other than self, otherwise just Shield instead), or athletics checks. Storm Sorcerer can fly 10' when he casts a spell, but Claudius can already carry me around for free and the flight doesn't even work with Shield (usually) which is the spell I'd be casting most often in melee... no thanks, I'd rather be Wild.

RE: standard point buy, well, here's the thing. One reason I don't use standard point buy is that there's a tension between what is clearly optimal (dump Int, dump either Str or Dex, probably dump Cha) and what I can stand to play as an actual character. In particular, I can't bring myself to play a character with an Int under 10 or 11. But mechanically, the build would work perfectly fine with standard point buy as a human with Str 15, Con 16, Cha 16, rest 8s, with Warcaster. You still wind up with the same feats in the long term, the only difference is worse Dex and Wis saves and +2 instead of +3 to attacks. (But who cares? You have advantage on many attacks anyway from Mounted Combatant or Darkness/Devil's Sight or Tides of Chaos, and when you need to Sacred Weapon will give you another +5 with no concentration cost. Having +2 to damage instead of +3 doesn't change much when you're relying on False Fetters or Eldritch Blast. In fact, one of my original motivations for considering Paladin/Sorc was specifically to remove the need to boost Strength in order to attack.)

In short, standard point buy would make the character unplayable for me on a roleplaying level (Cranduin just isn't the same as a short-tempered clumsy dimwit with Int 8/Wis 8/Dex 8) but it doesn't affect the build's viability at all, really. In fact, the build is mostly SAD on Cha. You could drop Con to 14 or even 12 without seriously altering the way it plays; decreasing Str would be notable mostly for how much it damages your mobility when you're not mounted. Str 10 Con 10 Cha 16 would still be doable, especially if you could get someone to Longstrider you in unmounted scenarios.

When I roll poorly () I make a Sorlock, Rogue, or a Moon Druid. That array right there looks like Alec Guiness's Obi Wan Kenobi: Str 7, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11. Old but not out of it. (Decent but not great Wisdom because like Yoda he gives really poor relationship advice. "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke." Uh, no. Bad idea.) Give him Mobile and you're ready to go. At 4th level take Resilient (Con) and at 8th take Lucky, then use your other ASIs to boost Wisdom to 18 by 20th level. Voila! Viable character.

Hemlock said:

RE: standard point buy, well, here's the thing. One reason I don't use standard point buy is that there's a tension between what is clearly optimal (dump Int, dump either Str or Dex, probably dump Cha) and what I can stand to play as an actual character. In particular, I can't bring myself to play a character with an Int under 10 or 11.

...

Click to expand...

Thanks, Hemlock. I completely agree with you in terms of stats--I too am generally unwilling to play a character with mental stats below 10, which is why I have generally tended to steer clear of paladins in the past. Half-elf offers the best starting array, but if you want Str 16/Cha 16 and don't want to completely dump Dex, Int, or Wis, you have to accept a starting Con of 13, which is the worst Con out of all the tanking classes. The best strategy in this case is to pick up Resilient (Con) in order to raise your Con to 14 and also to improve your chances of making Concentration checks. An alternative is to start with a 14 Str or Cha, which makes for a more well-rounded character, but ensures that all of your ASI's must be used for improving your Str and Cha if you want to reach 20 in both stats. I like the idea of a paladin whose effectiveness is less dependent on two stats.

Leugren said:

Thanks, Hemlock. I completely agree with you in terms of stats--I too am generally unwilling to play a character with mental stats below 10, which is why I have generally tended to steer clear of paladins in the past. Half-elf offers the best starting array, but if you want Str 16/Cha 16 and don't want to completely dump Dex, Int, or Wis, you have to accept a starting Con of 13, which is the worst Con out of all the tanking classes. The best strategy in this case is to pick up Resilient (Con) in order to raise your Con to 14 and also to improve your chances of making Concentration checks. An alternative is to start with a 14 Str or Cha, which makes for a more well-rounded character, but ensures that all of your ASI's must be used for improving your Str and Cha if you want to reach 20 in both stats. I like the idea of a paladin whose effectiveness is less dependent on two stats.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I would never, ever boost Strength to 20 on a Paladin. There's just not enough return on investment, with only two attacks and lots of other ways to boost to-hit, and you already have smiting for emergencies. I'd be happier with Strength 13 and Mobile than with Strength 20.

A single Web spell probably does more good than three ASIs wasted on strength, in my philosophy.

Hemlock said:

Yeah, I would never, ever boost Strength to 20 on a Paladin. There's just not enough return on investment, with only two attacks and lots of other ways to boost to-hit, and you already have smiting for emergencies. I'd be happier with Strength 13 and Mobile than with Strength 20.

A single Web spell probably does more good than three ASIs wasted on strength, in my philosophy.

Click to expand...

I know I saw a sequence of posts somewhere about picking up the Shillelagh cantrip to help ease up on paladin MAD. I don't quite remember the conclusion of that debate. Doing so would cost you an ASI for Magic Initiate, of course, but that might be worth it if you prefer to play a paladin with well-rounded attributes (i.e. something other than a paladunce). I'm not sure I care for the flavor of a club-wielding paladin, though I could see it for an Oath of the Ancients paladin, or an ardent worshipper of some deity like St. Cuthbert.

Leugren said:

I know I saw a sequence of posts somewhere about picking up the Shillelagh cantrip to help ease up on paladin MAD. I don't quite remember the conclusion of that debate. Doing so would cost you an ASI for Magic Initiate, of course, but that might be worth it if you prefer to play a paladin with well-rounded attributes (i.e. something other than a paladunce). I'm not sure I care for the flavor of a club-wielding paladin, though I could see it for an Oath of the Ancients paladin, or an ardent worshipper of some deity like St. Cuthbert.

Click to expand...

It doesn't have to cost you an ASI--you could also be a Warlock 3 and take the Pact of the Tome for three cantrips (which the devs have clarified still count as Warlock spells and use Charisma). Personally I don't like that third level of Warlock for RP reasons (too much commitment to your patron for my taste; I'd rather just steal some arcane knowledge at level 2 and split) but it's an option.

And again, you don't have to play a paladunce. Even without rolling, you could use the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and play a variant human: Str 15 Str (for armor), Dex 8, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16. Con 13 isn't all that different from Con 16, especially if you did take Lucky as your feat. Inspiring Leader is another option which, at first level, is sort of like +8 to Con for your whole party, plus extra healing. It's still useful later on but especially at first level it is a massive boost to survivability, though I'd rather put it on the party bard or warlock than the paladin.

Good gaming!

Find Steed + Mounted Combatant + False Fetters for melee kiting with advantage on attack against medium creatures (Claudius moves up to enemy; Cranduin attacks with lance + False Fetters and advantage from Mounted Combatant; Claudius disengages and retreats a few feet; enemy is now Fettered in place and cannot attack back without Fetters exploding)

Click to expand...

Hemlock said:

Yeah, I would never, ever boost Strength to 20 on a Paladin. There's just not enough return on investment, with only two attacks and lots of other ways to boost to-hit, and you already have smiting for emergencies. I'd be happier with Strength 13 and Mobile than with Strength 20.

A single Web spell probably does more good than three ASIs wasted on strength, in my philosophy.

Click to expand...

It is not about dps, it is about landing smites when you need that spike in damage, or landing smite spells when you need additional control.

Georlik said:

Does not work that way:
Booming Blade - range 5 ft.
Lance has disadvantage if used upclose.
Thus no advantage from mounted combatant.​

It is not about dps, it is about landing smites when you need that spike in damage, or landing smite spells when you need additional control.

Click to expand...

You're right, you have to use a sword or hammer or something instead. Small loss; most of your damage isn't from the weapon.

Boosting Str for smites... doesn't increase your number of criticals, and without a crit, smiting is pretty bad. As for crowd control, YMMV but I'd rather have a Paladin fighting in his own Careful Web than waste multiple ASIs boosting Strength so I can try to land Blinding Smite somewhat faster...

ClockworkNinja said:

I don't think anyone's mentioned this so far so I'll lay out a powerful paladin (if not one of the highest-damage dealing characters in the game)...


So a lvl 3 variant human paladin who uses a polearm and has 16 STR would do the following (after casting hunters mark, and swearing enmity):
-Move to within 10ft of enemy
-Standard action: Attack at +5 with advantage, doing 1d10+3+1d6 damage on a hit (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die)
-Bonus action: Attack at +5 with advantage, doing 1d4+3+1d6 on a hit (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die)
-Move 5ft away and if the enemy moves within 10ft of you, opportunity attack (again +5 with advantage, doing 1d10+3+1d6 damage on a hit, (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die))

If any of these attacks crit (and rolling 4-6 d20s a round that should happen fairly often) you can deal 2d10+3+2d6+4d8 damage (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die).
And this is at level 3! On top of good armor, healing ability, spell casting, and having high charisma in social situations.

Click to expand...

I would like to point out while the combination you mention is certainly strong, one should not expect this to be useful in any resemblance of regular play. Taking 2 rounds to come online, very few fights will actually last to the point where meaningful impact on combat will happen in the third round. Occasionally sure, but i would consider it the exception and not the rule.