D&D 5E 'The Paladin as King': Cutting Through the Hype

[Leugren]

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level half-elf. +1 to two stats, +2 chr, 1 feat.

Looks pretty even if you would want to boost Chr as a paladin. Oh, but half elves also get darkvision, fey ancestry and two extra skills.

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level dragonborn: +2 str, +1 chr, 1 feat

So Dragonborn start 1 ability boost behind, but also gets a breath weapon (hordes being somethign paladins aren't good with) and damage resistance.

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level human: +1 to six stats, 1 feat

Not saying "+6 is better than +2", but as you pointed out paladins are MAD. At least three of those are good (Str/Dex, Con and Chr) and Wis is not bad. Plus dex if you're a str paladin for init and reflex saves. All in all, different but not weaker.

This is just three, there's a lot of viable paladin races. They are MAD, but that does make races that get more than +2 total racial ability bumps quite interesting.

I agree that the choice between a half-elf and a variant human is generally a wash by 4th level, with half-elves coming out ahead thanks to darkvision and other racial abilities. As for the other races, I still think you're giving up a lot, but reliable access to spells like Bless can help mitigate.

 

[Leugren]

Been running a half-elf Oath of Ancients paladin with polearm mastery quite effectively. 7th level now. Best AC and HPs in the group, give out +3 to all magic saves and resistance to magic damage within 10'. I burn though spells quickly smiting - rather save us healing and kill things fast instead of save and perhaps never use. (Which is the opposite of most casters I play.) I've found the cure disease/poison parts of Lay on Hands to be a hidden gem if not a common need.

My strength is a bit lower because of the feat, only 16. With a bless up (either from the cleric or myself) I don't have a problem hitting, and I have 3 attacks a round plus possible reaction attack from polearm master.

We have a barbarian who out-damages me (without smite) and has resistance while raging, everyone else is more support or artillery. I've let the sorcerer know it's just fine to rain fireballs down on my position if it'll get a lot of foes because I get +Chr to the save and resistance to the damage - I'm not that scared. (Plus both me and the barb will be twin hasted, so an extra +2 to reflex on top of it.) These synergies with the party really help us all do well.

One thing that helps overcome a weakness with the paladin is that I have an uncommon magic item: Winged Boots. Give me the ability to close across difficult terrain or flying opponents.

Thanks for sharing, Blue. Have you experienced any particular problems with this character? Are there some things you would change?

 

[Blue]

Thanks for sharing, Blue. Have you experienced any particular problems with this character? Are there some things you would change?

1. Funny, but I felt that I was hogging the combat spotlight the first few sessions. Brought it up to the DM. He had a lot of 1-encounter days and since I wasn't holding back with resources I was outdamaging everyone. Now that we're at a saner encounter pace it's better. (I still make the early ones go fast, leaving everyone else more resources to shine in later ones.)

2. I had a whole thing planned around RP with my Find Steed, and this is a group that would enjoy it. But since it doesn't scale it's so dang fragile, and I don't have spare 2nd level slots mid-day to bring it back. Now it often gets killed first round of combat.

3. Speak with Animals and other utility spells have been surprisingly useful. Smite spells have som uses but with polearm master it's usually worth using my bonus action for an extra attack and smite with the slot then to cast it.

4. The party really makes me shine. Bless is a near-constant now, and haste is common in tougher encounters. And I try to make them shine - gather enemies around me for fireballs, heal the cleric if he needs it, rushing to protect casters if needed.

5. Channel Divinities for Oath of Ancients are meh, either of questionable value over other uses of an action or situational. But that's not a big problem.

All in all, quite happy with the choices.

 

[Momar]

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level half-elf. +1 to two stats, +2 chr, 1 feat.
Looks pretty even if you would want to boost Chr as a paladin. Oh, but half elves also get darkvision, fey ancestry and two extra skills.
4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level dragonborn: +2 str, +1 chr, 1 feat
So Dragonborn start 1 ability boost behind, but also gets a breath weapon (hordes being somethign paladins aren't good with) and damage resistance.
4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level human: +1 to six stats, 1 feat
Not saying "+6 is better than +2", but as you pointed out paladins are MAD. At least three of those are good (Str/Dex, Con and Chr) and Wis is not bad. Plus dex if you're a str paladin for init and reflex saves. All in all, different but not weaker. This is just three, there's a lot of viable paladin races. They are MAD, but that does make races that get more than +2 total racial ability bumps quite interesting.

The way this is phrased is a little misleading. The variant human is most likely at +3 to one stat, +1 to one stat, and a feat, while the other options are exactly as you lay them out. In a point buy game this is likely the difference between a +3 to primary attack modifier or a +4 (or charisma, I suppose). This +1 difference is going to be around for 8 levels of a character's career, assuming both just go for primary attacking stat after that first feat. That's a long time, especially when many games struggle to make it to later levels.

Prefacing this paragraph: As many have said, 5e is fairly tight with balance, so you really can't torpedo your character that easily; I'm writing with the mindset of eeking out mechanical advantages, not that one option is unplayable.
Variant human (EDIT: I meant to say basic here), in particular, doesn't stack up in my mind. For an example point buy, say you go 15 str, 15 cha, 13 con, 11 wis or dex, 9 other one, 8 int (lots of odd numbers to maximize the +1 all). The variant human could do more or less the same, but change wis and dex to either 10 each, or one 12 one 8. Just to make the comparison very straight forward, say they get resilient (con). That means the difference between the two options is +2 constitution save (which will grow with proficiency) and a skill on the variant human versus +1 dex or wis modifier (save and skills) on the regular human. The former seems much more attractive to me than the latter.

As to the thread topic- Basically what mellored said. I'm finding my paladin (GWF vengeance variant human) is fantastic at damage and pretty flexible for being able to do what the party needs at a given moment, but if I actually try to be more than the beat stick I'm winded after just a couple of fights. It was especially noticeable at the lower levels when spells were super limited and the party make up at the time meant I was the tank and healer despite being built for more of a damage route (the party didn't meet and build together). I absolutely could do all three.... for like one fight, maybe two.

 

[Blue]

As many have said, 5e is fairly tight with balance, so you really can't torpedo your character that easily; I'm writing with the mindset of eeking out mechanical advantages, not that one option is unplayable. Variant human, in particular, doesn't stack up in my mind.

I was debating the OP who said that variant human was the only viable paladin. Or rather that playing anything else would "render you a shackled runner". I believe I agree with you that there are a lot of viable races. Having one a nose in front of others at particular level ranges may occur.

As to the thread topic- Basically what mellored said. I'm finding my paladin (GWF vengeance variant human) is fantastic at damage and pretty flexible for being able to do what the party needs at a given moment, but if I actually try to be more than the beat stick I'm winded after just a couple of fights. It was especially noticeable at the lower levels when spells were super limited and the party make up at the time meant I was the tank and healer despite being built for more of a damage route (the party didn't meet and build together). I absolutely could do all three.... for like one fight, maybe two.

I'm happy with the versatility of my half elf oath of ancients with polearm mastery. I share tank/damage with a barbarian, we both do some of each. I have better AC, he's got resists and more HPs. My auras help a lot as well. We have cleric who will heal (though not dedicated by any means) and a sorcerer for blasting (lots of little things not being my specialty). Both are willing to buff, bless and twin haste are their respective buffs. Rather useful.

Outside combat I have a good amount of skills from half-elf, high charisma for social encounters, some useful utility spells (speak with animals has been a big winner, it's from oath of ancients). I have my warhorse from find steed for scouting outdoors since I move faster than everyone else. I find that I can contribute meaningfully in most situations.

 

[SnakeEyes097]

Rolling stats can clearly help mitigate MAD if you manage to roll above average. You made an uncommon decision in choosing to place your highest roll into Constitution. How are your Strength and Charisma scores? Have lower scores in Strength and Charisma affected you in practice?

His Str is 14, Cha 16. It hasn't really hindered too much so far, it's not like I miss by one very often. His spells are mostly buffs and heals, so he doesn't have to overcome monster's ac or make them save ever, and his high Con helps him keep Bless up. It's worked pretty well so far for me.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sure, I'd be interested, Hemlock. What's your level-to-level progression for this build? Why wild sorcerer as opposed to draconic? Have you found any hidden pain points in actual play? Any observations on feats would be welcome as well. Do you advocate picking up key feats early or maximizing your key ability scores first? Why?

Okay, I'm on phone so short shrift, but the biggest surprise to me is how good the Paladin has been. The original party was a three-man ranged party with high mobility, and I figured the tank-focused Paladin would just hold the front line occasionally when kiting wasn't feasible, in close terrain--but he's actually been an all-star who makes kiting almost superfluous because he NEVER GETS HURT.

Level progression was Paladin of Devotion 1 to 6 for Aura and Find Steed, then Sorcerer 1 to 3 for Shield and Metamagic, then I don't remember what order P7 and S4 came in. Lucky feat initially, then Cha boosting with ASIs because his original primary job is protection. P7 makes Hypnotic Pattern usable without friendly fire problems.

If I did it again I would take Sorcerer 1 earlier for Shield because it, combined with Dodging, was transformative.

I originally intended Dragon Sorcerer but took Wild instead for the sake of Bend Luck later, because he's a protector and I decided that that was more vital than a marginally Fire Bolt/Fireball. Tides of Chaos is probably nice but so far it actually has never been needed, though it got used a couple of times for fun just to make surges happen in combat, in hopes of an AoE surge like Fireball, to see what would happen. So far the only memorable Wild Surge has been de-aging himself back into beardless youth, age 17, which has made him philosophical about bodies and aging. "It's just a mask, it's not who you really are."

Also if I did it again I would take Warcaster as bonus feat instead of Lucky, for several reasons: there aren't as many close calls with saves or crits as I expected, and it's possible he has yet to even spend any luck dice; Warcaster synergizes really well with grapple+prone (especially of a Hexed target) so you can still Shield, which has been a major trade-off so far with grappling; SCAG's cantrips make Warcaster very attractive for a tank trying to disincentivize enemies from bypassing him; and it would be nice to be able to toss up Quickened Blur or Shield of Faith with absolutely no concerns over losing concentration. Win-win-win.

When your enemy has disadvantage from prone or Dodge or Blur, even the threat of AC 26 via Shield goes a long, long way. (Full plate, shield, defense style.) Usually it isn't even actually needed--and Warcaster prevents you from being easily bypassed while Dodging, because while d8+3 is not a lot of damage for an opportunity attack, 3d8+3 is quite respectable, especially with another 3d8 ready to hit as soon as you move another foot. Better to abort and go back to attacking the Paladin, disadvantage or not, or just flee from the PCs.

Oh, and Warcaster lets you Shield Bash a grappled, prone enemy at advantage but no proficiency with Greenflame Blade for 2d8+d4+3 damage, plus maybe hitting someone else for more, instead of the two attacks for 2d4+6 you'd get otherwise.

So, Warcaster is great for a paladorc who wants to tank while ranged PCs do damage.

He has a warhorse Steed named Claudius who tends not to feature in combat scenarios because a scenario where steeds are suitable tends also to be trivializable via kiting, so gets skipped over. But a large mount does let you physically block the movement of Huge creatures, which can be nice if you're trying to tank Fire Giants or something. So far that's never been needed but it's in the back of my mind, and I intend to pick up Mounted Combatant eventually, as my fourth and last ASI at level 18 or 19.

 

[ClockworkNinja]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this so far so I'll lay out a powerful paladin (if not one of the highest-damage dealing characters in the game).

The key thing about the paladin's SMITE feature is that you can choose to apply it after you roll. Since SMITE damage dice get doubled along with all other damage dice on a crit, you can sit on this resource until you get the perfect opportunity, and there are many ways of increasing your likelihood of getting such an opportunity.

Most obvious is the Oath of Vengence- once a short rest you can swear enmity on a target and get free advantage against them. This oath also gets you the Hunters Mark spell, which gives you an extra 1d6 damage per hit (also multiplied on a crit).

Using a Glaive or Halberd with the polearm master feat is an easy way to get a bonus action attack, as well as a reaction attack if an enemy enters your reach. Since this is a two-handed heavy weapon, it also works with Great Weapon Fighting style.

So a lvl 3 variant human paladin who uses a polearm and has 16 STR would do the following (after casting hunters mark, and swearing enmity):
-Move to within 10ft of enemy
-Standard action: Attack at +5 with advantage, doing 1d10+3+1d6 damage on a hit (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die)
-Bonus action: Attack at +5 with advantage, doing 1d4+3+1d6 on a hit (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die)
-Move 5ft away and if the enemy moves within 10ft of you, opportunity attack (again +5 with advantage, doing 1d10+3+1d6 damage on a hit, (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die))

If any of these attacks crit (and rolling 4-6 d20s a round that should happen fairly often) you can deal 2d10+3+2d6+4d8 damage (re-roll 1 or 2 on weapon die).
And this is at level 3! On top of good armor, healing ability, spell casting, and having high charisma in social situations.


Further leveling opens up yet more options: Great Weapon Master feat will push your crit damage yet higher, while Sentinel feat lets you kite enemies endlessly. Multiclassing Fighter 3 will let you crit on a 19, while the UA "Undying light" warlock adds your charisma to radiant or fire damage spells (eg: branding smite).

MAD? Sure, but still plenty to be hyped about.

 

[Leugren]

Okay, I'm on phone so short shrift, but the biggest surprise to me is how good the Paladin has been. The original party was a three-man ranged party with high mobility, and I figured the tank-focused Paladin would just hold the front line occasionally when kiting wasn't feasible, in close terrain--but he's actually been an all-star who makes kiting almost superfluous because he NEVER GETS HURT.

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Really interesting, Hemlock. How do you plan to progress this build? Will you just keep taking more levels in Sorcerer, or do you have something else in mind?

Also, can you explain the comment about shield bashing with Warcaster? Do you mean that you are using your shield as an improvised weapon because you are grappling the opponent with your other hand?

Also, I infer from your post that a standard tactic for you, especially at low levels, is to move within melee range of several opponents and then use the Dodge action to make yourself really hard to hit. Anyone who tries to move around you to get at your allies would then be subject to the threat of an OA + smite? Is this true? I wonder how well the Tunnel Fighter fighting style might suit a build like this for added stickiness.

I also infer that grappling is a standard part of your combat repertoire. How often do you use it and under what circumstances?

EDIT: What would be your ideal progression for this build if you could do it all from scratch?

 

[Leugren]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this so far so I'll lay out a powerful paladin (if not one of the highest-damage dealing characters in the game).

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Polearm Master + GWM is OP on any melee build. The ability to add smite damage on a successful hit is definitely a big plus. Thanks for sharing!