Skill Challenges Open Thread

We've done this many times before. Here is yet another repository for insight and guidance into the machinery and techniques that make noncombat action scenes in 4e hum. I'll start.

What are Failures?

These are Team PC's Hit Point Pool, Stress Track (what have you). They're the mechanical marker for the good guys' ability to "stay in the fight" for whatever goal they're seeking to attain. They indicate increasing dramatic weight and escalation as the challenge evolves. As these accrue, the GM should render the fiction such that it reflects the PCs being on the ropes > imminent disaster looming > ultimate failure, story loss, and fallout.

What are Successes?

These are the GM's Opposition Hit Point Pool, Stress Track (what have you). That opposition might be the layers of bureaucracy that deny audience with the hobgoblin king and the king's own resolve to keep his borders closed during a regional refugee crisis. That opposition might be the combined potency of (a) time crunch, (b) topographical hazards, (c) elemental hazards, and (d) hostile actors as the PCs attempt to climb down a treacherous mountain peak and reach a group of fleeing refugees before they are overcome by sentient Far Realm mists (that will transform them all into mutate horrors).

They're the mechanical marker for the "bad guys'" ability to "keep the heat on Team PC" and interpose themselves between the PCs' as the good guys seek to attain their goal. They indicate increasing dramatic weight and escalation as the challenge evolves. As these accrue, the GM should render the fiction such that it reflects the PCs heroically overcoming adversity > hope and momentum building > ultimate success, story win, and cuing the good guy theme music.

What are Primary Checks?

If this was Leverage RPG, these would be beats. If this was Marvel Heroic RPG, these would be panels. These are zoomed in moments of the greater conflict where the PCs are facing significant adversity and must make a decision under stress, for better or for worse. Something decisive is going to happen to change the situation as a result of their efforts. Players might leverage their Skills (Arcana, Athletics, Nature, et al), Healing Surges or applicable Powers for bonuses, applicable Dailies to step the DC down one (or succeed at the Medium DC automatically), coin (often 10 % of an of-level item for an auto-success), or Rituals.

A second usage of the same Primary Skill in a challenge should step up the DC (eg from Medium to Hard) or increase it by + 5 if the DC is Hard.

What are Secondary Checks?

These are tighter zoom still than Primary Checks. These are effectively augments to Primary Check efforts (+2 or - 2 success or failure). Players can aid each other or they can augment their own subsequent checks. This is most often accomplished through Skills.

The number of Secondary Checks available customarily equals that of the complexity of the Skill Challenge (eg 2 for a complexity 2 challenge).

What are Advantages?

These provide a modicum of authorship to players. Thematically, these would be things like luck, digging down deep, when powerful emotions are in play (eg relationships), divine sponsorship, etc. Players gain 2 of these for complexity 3 challenges, 4 for C4 challenges, and 6 for c5 challenges. Mechanically, they can do things such as (1) stepping a DC down (eg from Hard to Medium), (2) allowing a second use of a Skill for a Primary Check at the same DC, (3) cancelling out an accrued Failure, (4) allowing a reroll.

Nice stuff!

Here are the (working document) notes I have on Skill Challenges, for general interest and assistance. Any feedback or comment much appreciated!

View attachment D and D Skill Challenge Mechanisms.pdf

Balesir said:

Nice stuff!

Here are the (working document) notes I have on Skill Challenges, for general interest and assistance. Any feedback or comment much appreciated!

View attachment 72035

Click to expand...

Looks great! I very much like your player-side "Advantage Economy" and the dynamic interchange between that and "GM Tokens". Very Cortex+. I may have to swipe that!

Everything else is sound, coherent, cogent advice. Folks interested in running successful Skill Challenges should definitely download it!

Question. Putting gear on the hook for failures in PBtA games is straight forward because they are expendable and not effectively PC-build tools. 4e makes gear/player wealth a component of PC build. I saw where you put gear/wealth at stake some times. Is that perma-loss or just temporary loss (eg - "weapon jammed" analogue for heroic fantasy - rogue magic field leading to malfunction/disarm/exhaustion limiting a Grandmaster Training Benefit until an Extended Rest/et al - rather than "weapon sucked into the Far Realm Entropic Fissure!")? If perma-loss, how does that work out in play?

Manbearcat said:

I very much like your player-side "Advantage Economy" and the dynamic interchange between that and "GM Tokens". Very Cortex+. I may have to swipe that!

Click to expand...

Thanks! The advantage/token stuff is actually just a bit of an extension on what is already in the rules, designed to add a bit of flexibility and make the GM's job in the game more clear/delineated. Tokens come from the set number of "hard" DCs in a challenge, per the RC rules - the GM gets one token per "hard" DC and can choose to use it to make a DC hard, or to apply one of a range of other effects both to inject their own aesthetic into the challenge and to represent "opposition" to the PCs in non-combat situations. The lack of such "opposition" was always something that bugged me about Skill Challenges, as originally written.

Manbearcat said:

Question. Putting gear on the hook for failures in PBtA games is straight forward because they are expendable and not effectively PC-build tools. 4e makes gear/player wealth a component of PC build. I saw where you put gear/wealth at stake some times. Is that perma-loss or just temporary loss (eg - "weapon jammed" analogue for heroic fantasy - rogue magic field leading to malfunction/disarm/exhaustion limiting a Grandmaster Training Benefit until an Extended Rest/et al - rather than "weapon sucked into the Far Realm Entropic Fissure!")? If perma-loss, how does that work out in play?

Click to expand...

You could use temporary loss - either delayed treasure or inoperable items for a time - but I'm finding that in the context of a multi-level campaign simple removal works fine for a few reasons:

1) A portion of the treasure is balanced out to be for rituals or other "consumables" in any case, and there is the "sell (old) items for 20% of cost" thing as well, meaning that there is a fair amount of "wastage" built into the system to begin with.

2) Because item values multiply by 5 every 5 levels (broadly), losses of a few levels ago become pretty much irrelevant. The current "party worth" is dominated by the at-level items; "old" items swiftly become kibble, in the greater scheme of things.

If you just give out treasure parcels according to the DMG guidelines, a pretty large margin of variation creeps in, so obsessing about the value of the party's gear is really not necessary. The loss of an item (or equivalent wealth) is a serious cost - as skill challenge losses should be - but it's not detrimental to game play in the longer term.

I should probably mention that we don't use the "Item Rarity" guff - I just add 5 to the level of "Rare" items. They are no longer PC creatable at their old level, and sell for the same as an item of its original level would. Job done. We still use Daily Item Uses - which makes for another useful currency in Skill Challenges

Balesir said:

Thanks! The advantage/token stuff is actually just a bit of an extension on what is already in the rules, designed to add a bit of flexibility and make the GM's job in the game more clear/delineated. Tokens come from the set number of "hard" DCs in a challenge, per the RC rules - the GM gets one token per "hard" DC and can choose to use it to make a DC hard, or to apply one of a range of other effects both to inject their own aesthetic into the challenge and to represent "opposition" to the PCs in non-combat situations. The lack of such "opposition" was always something that bugged me about Skill Challenges, as originally written.

Click to expand...

Gotcha. This is actually pretty much cut from the same cloth as the way I run them (including the intepretation of Hard DCs as effectively "conflict escalation tokens" a la the "Doom Pool."

Balesir said:

You could use temporary loss - either delayed treasure or inoperable items for a time - but I'm finding that in the context of a multi-level campaign simple removal works fine for a few reasons:

1) A portion of the treasure is balanced out to be for rituals or other "consumables" in any case, and there is the "sell (old) items for 20% of cost" thing as well, meaning that there is a fair amount of "wastage" built into the system to begin with.

Click to expand...

Gotcha here as well. In effect, you're talking about a number up to present character level - 1 in coin (which is conveyed in the DMG to be a fungible portion of PC build wealth for the Ritual/Consumable/Service/Mount purchase fodder). That is certainly a fair amount to stake during play and while it does reflect an asset, it isn't an expected component of the PC balance equation as is the trio of level, level - 1, level + 1 worth of items/advancements/boons. It just means that PCs will have to more attentively triage their level - 1 assets in the future (which is the point...as losses are supposed to hurt!).

Who Are the Bad Guys?

In combat, it is usually fairly simple to determine where the adversity is coming for the PCs. It is the grim-looking fellow(s) holding the point bit of steel opposite them. However, in noncombat conflict resolution, it isn't so straight forward. Just like in combat, the way to the answer arises from the question "what threatens the PCs' realization of their goal?" Looking at some conflicts from genre fiction is always the best place to start. I'll begin with a rather famous example.

The Fellowship of the Ring's Perilous Journey

Time: Here you make them feel the crunch of the moments relentlessly ticking by toward doom. Tempt them with branches that would be safer/less punitive immediately (easier DCs versus the alternative or where they feel they can leverage resources that have a higher % chance of success) but may end up being more costly long term (will require "the long way around", will make them double back, will force a nigh-impossible Group Check that might spiral). Tempt them with a direct (Mines of Moria?) but extremely dangerous route (a singular success might provide 2 successes but the fallout for failure - multiple surge loss and borderline overwhelming combat encounters - would be dramatic).

Provisions/foodstuffs: This stuff is typically handled off-screen, but this is a good opportunity to make it relevant. Samwise needs po-tay-toes to make a nice stew with. Unfortunately (due to a failure in the challenge), rations have spoiled, or the sack carrying them ripped unknowingly, or it fell down a crevice during a treacherous climb! And you're only two legs in to a 4 leg journey! Better forage or your group is going to have to face a Group Endurance Check at the High DC!

Tis a Barren Wasteland, Riddled With Fire, Ash, and Dust: Topographical/environmental adversity is ever-present and likely your bread and butter. Your trailblazer/navigator suffers from disorienting circumstances that must be navigated lest you hopelessly get lost. Glacial crevasses and false floors mar the only way forward. Pestilential swamps threaten you with disease or trench foot. Extreme heat or cold imposes the risk of exposure. A sheer, vulnerable climb down a cliff face or constructing a make-shift raft and riding it headlong down a rapid-filled river becomes an uncomfortable choice. Perhaps the land itself is enchanted and rises up against you to foil intrusion (Mirkwood). Here you are challenging several different skills and hitting the PCs with lots of surge-loss and attacking them with Diseases/Conditions.

There is Evil There That Does Not Sleep: Your scouts better be wary twice-over. The enemy is ever-watchful and has spies everywhere. Even the more mundane creatures out here are not benign. They want food and they want to protect their territory and their young. You are food, you're in their territory, and you threaten their young. This means combat encounters; proactively nested as a mini-SC for a success/failure in the greater challenge - PCs chose this or it cannot be bypassed by available means - or reactively deployed by the GM as a result of failure that must be overcome to move on at all.

A Terrible Burden: Something haunts them. This might be a restless spirit, a malevolent artifact, a vulnerable companion, a dangerous prisoner, or a relationship soured. The longer the journey, the more opportunity for the burden to manifest its terrible potential.

Manbearcat said:

Who Are the Bad Guys?

In combat, it is usually fairly simple to determine where the adversity is coming for the PCs. It is the grim-looking fellow(s) holding the point bit of steel opposite them. However, in noncombat conflict resolution, it isn't so straight forward. Just like in combat, the way to the answer arises from the question "what threatens the PCs' realization of their goal?" Looking at some conflicts from genre fiction is always the best place to start. I'll begin with a rather famous example.

The Fellowship of the Ring's Perilous Journey

Time: Here you make them feel the crunch of the moments relentlessly ticking by toward doom. Tempt them with branches that would be safer/less punitive immediately (easier DCs versus the alternative or where they feel they can leverage resources that have a higher % chance of success) but may end up being more costly long term (will require "the long way around", will make them double back, will force a nigh-impossible Group Check that might spiral). Tempt them with a direct (Mines of Moria?) but extremely dangerous route (a singular success might provide 2 successes but the fallout for failure - multiple surge loss and borderline overwhelming combat encounters - would be dramatic).

Provisions/foodstuffs: This stuff is typically handled off-screen, but this is a good opportunity to make it relevant. Samwise needs po-tay-toes to make a nice stew with. Unfortunately (due to a failure in the challenge), rations have spoiled, or the sack carrying them ripped unknowingly, or it fell down a crevice during a treacherous climb! And you're only two legs in to a 4 leg journey! Better forage or your group is going to have to face a Group Endurance Check at the High DC!

Tis a Barren Wasteland, Riddled With Fire, Ash, and Dust: Topographical/environmental adversity is ever-present and likely your bread and butter. Your trailblazer/navigator suffers from disorienting circumstances that must be navigated lest you hopelessly get lost. Glacial crevasses and false floors mar the only way forward. Pestilential swamps threaten you with disease or trench foot. Extreme heat or cold imposes the risk of exposure. A sheer, vulnerable climb down a cliff face or constructing a make-shift raft and riding it headlong down a rapid-filled river becomes an uncomfortable choice. Perhaps the land itself is enchanted and rises up against you to foil intrusion (Mirkwood). Here you are challenging several different skills and hitting the PCs with lots of surge-loss and attacking them with Diseases/Conditions.

There is Evil There That Does Not Sleep: Your scouts better be wary twice-over. The enemy is ever-watchful and has spies everywhere. Even the more mundane creatures out here are not benign. They want food and they want to protect their territory and their young. You are food, you're in their territory, and you threaten their young. This means combat encounters; proactively nested as a mini-SC for a success/failure in the greater challenge - PCs chose this or it cannot be bypassed by available means - or reactively deployed by the GM as a result of failure that must be overcome to move on at all.

A Terrible Burden: Something haunts them. This might be a restless spirit, a malevolent artifact, a vulnerable companion, a dangerous prisoner, or a relationship soured. The longer the journey, the more opportunity for the burden to manifest its terrible potential.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're getting at the 'overarching skill challenge' or 'story arc as skill challenge' idea. Its one that IIRC one of the DMGs touched on, but there was never a lot of discussion. I know someone (Critical Hits maybe) did a little thing on it once. I have never really seen it in action. Thought about doing one a few times, but the long-term bookkeeping was always a bit of a deterrent.

I really like the related idea of a strategic level skill challenge. That is one that is resolved in one go at the table but covers a large and significant, but usually not action-filled part of a story arc (like an ocean voyage, where there isn't a lot of constant action, but you can intersperse quite a few small incidents). The results will determine the resources available to the party when (and if) they reach their chosen destination. Do they arrive in good shape with all their accouterments, or do they stagger to shore in a row boat half starved and missing all but their most vital equipment?

In this sort of setup the loss of surges has to be understood to be a more long-term wearing down of the character's capacity to push forward. They can obviously rest many times during a long journey (and some successes might erase surge losses, maybe particularly secondary skill uses, or advantages). In your model that might represent holing up in Lothlorien for a month (Frodo manages to dazzle Galadriel, they come away one surge and some magical equipment to the good, this and the waybread can be traded later for a +2 here or there on some other checks).

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION], your inbox is full so I'm just going to respond to your PM here. It is topical anyway so fair enough!

AbdulAlhazred said:

You too! I think someone should really write up a definitive version of skill challenges, kind of system-independent really. I keep hearing that the Galaxy of Intrigue book has a really good writeup, but I'll be damned if I can find it anywhere (and not being a SWSE player I really don't care to invest much in that effort TBH). Ever read it?

Click to expand...

Hey mate.

Yup, I've read it. I think you'll find (should you purchase it) that it bears an extremely tight resemblance to DMG2. The two are pretty close to contemporaries (with DMG2 coming out perhaps a year before it?) and Rodney Thompson is a (the?) primary author of the GoI book so it makes sense. It does all the stuff that DMG2 does (breaks down different levels of mechanical transparency, adjudication of non-skill actions - eg Rituals, HS, Coin vs Force Powers, Talents, Feats, Equipment, GM guidance, and player approach).

I have a pretty high opinion of DMG2 (as you know) so my opinion of GoI is pretty similar.

That being said, I think there are some key differences:

1) While they both stridently speak to the the Skill Challenge as genre trope/cinematic action scene facilitator, GoI more vigorously encourages players to approach things that way. However, this is also a problem because there is some incoherence embedded in some of the instruction. It speaks to players approaching their action declarations from that perspective (daring-do and cinematic risk-taking) while also encouraging them to work toward maximizing their strengths in their approaches. These two are often at tension during play and it doesn't provide GM guidance (or a proper reward cycle to handle sub-optimal approaches to action declarations) to reconcile this.

2) GoI does a good job about talking up the necessity of the fiction evolving dynamically as a result of each "panel" (my language, not theirs). However, it also talks about the Skill Challenge possibly evolving such that the declared goal/stakes might change mid-stream...

That is awful advice in my opinion. Awful because it is problematic for play. The point of a Skill Challenge is to focus on a specific genre trope/action scene and continuously escalate the conflict toward resolving the premise at the heart of the scene; "Do the imperial speeder bike scouts discover the rebel activity on Endor and relay it to central command?" That is a contained scene. If things totally change and that question suddenly becomes unanswerable/irrelevant before the resolution mechanics/evolved fiction have decided its fate (for whatever reason...typically that means something has gone very wrong - either poor GMing or incoherent motivations amongst the players...which typically is an issue that needs to be addressed outside of play at the social contract level), the scene should be closed out/immediately transitioned. Likewise, the mechanical framework of the former SC should be closed out in that case and the fallout/rewards tallied and the new scene framed (along with attendant stakes/goal).

Anyhoo, for my money Koebel and Latorra's Dungeon World by far do the best job of GM instruction when it comes to this stuff. They transparently canvas the difference between (a) rules, (b) top-down agenda for play generally, and (c) specific GMing principles that will inform the approach to any particular moment of play. Breaking these out and providing keen clarity on each of these is central to that. Running them together/outright conflating one with another or pretending that there is no delineation between the three is a problem with a lot of GMing advice.

MHRP is another hugely wonderful resource for running 4e Skill Challenges (while it also possesses the dynamic feedback chops that 4e noncombat conflict resolution would have been better for having...if 4e's SCs had that dynamic feedback and something like Burning Wheel's reward cycle, it would have been just about perfect in my opinion).

Alright, I'm tapping out for the night! I'll respond to your post directly above tomorrow. I still have to find the time to update the PBP I'm running on here with the results of the mass combat! Waning time and waning brain power is a bad mix.

Manbearcat said:

MHRP is another hugely wonderful resource for running 4e Skill Challenges (while it also possesses the dynamic feedback chops that 4e noncombat conflict resolution would have been better for having...if 4e's SCs had that dynamic feedback and something like Burning Wheel's reward cycle, it would have been just about perfect in my opinion).

Click to expand...

How does that work?