Fury over Black Hermione Granger

I couldn't care less. It's a play, it's separate from the movies. The Lion King play doesn't look like the Disney movie...

If it was movie and a sequel to the movie series (instead of a reboot), it would break my immersion. The same would be true if a previously black character is suddenly played by a white guy/gal. As someone mentioned, unless there's a complete reboot of the Marvel movie franchise, casting Fury as a white guy (as in the original comics) would raise pitchforks! Hell, even another black actor would raise pitchforks. A Terminator that isn't Schwarzenegger isn't a Terminator imho... You also don't mess with the cast of the Star Trek reboot. With Doctor Who, there's an explanation on why he has a different face and personality, but just about every change makes me uncomfortable...

First of all, "best," is so subjective that we won't be able to nail down a useful meaning of in this context. It isn't like there's an objective measuring system, or something. In casting, one does not make perfect the enemy of really good.

But, as for her quality - she's beaten out Cumberbatch for an Olivier award. In 2015, "she starred in Linda at London's Royal Court Theatre, stepping into the role vacated by Kim Cattrall with a few days notice before press night. Awarding the production five stars, the Daily Telegraph's Chief Theatre Critic Dominic Cavendish wrote "If they can bottle and mass-produce whatever it is that Noma Dumezweni has got then, please, I want to order a life-time’s supply.""

So, I think we can stipulate that, whether or not she is "the best", she's really good, yah?

Then, there is something besides, "we cast this role to create controversy," "we cast this person to throw a bone to minorities," and "this is the absolute best actress that auditioned."

There is also, "we have a vision for what we can do here, and this actress is good for that purpose."

Maybe there was a white actress who was, in all other ways, just slightly better than Noma Dumezweni. But, the director feels that adding the symbol of a smart, proactive, powerful black woman on the stage is really important. Not as controversy, not as a bone, but as an outright statement that such things as smart, proactive powerful black women exist! While there were some secondary character diversity in the works, let's face it, the Potterverse is very white, such that minorities taking in the works don't see themselves as strongly in those characters. I can see it as worthwhile to change that, to open people's heads a bit. Art's supposed to do that, you know - not just present a faithful presentation of prior work, not just entertain, but occasionally open your head a bit.

Dannyalcatraz said:

2) as JKR pointed out, her race was never mentioned in the books, so it isn't at odds with the canon.

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Just to nitpick (this is from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban):

Alzrius said:

Just to nitpick (this is from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban):

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That's not a reference to skin colour. Nobody ever, ever says "his white face" or "her black face" or any variation on that, referring to skin colour. That would be such a weird, odd thing to say or write. I'm not exactly a fan of Rowling's writing, but even she doesn't write that badly.

It's a common reference to being scared. It's not referring to race.

Morrus said:

That's not a reference to skin colour. Nobody ever, ever says "his white face" or "her black face" or any variation on that, referring to skin colour. That would be such a weird, odd thing to say or write. I'm not exactly a fan of Rowling's writing, but even she doesn't write that badly.

It's a common reference to being scared. It's not referring to race.

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I suppose you could read it that way. But you could just as easily read it as referring to race.

That's because people do call out particular characteristics (e.g. "his white face" or "her black face") if there's a reason to emphasize said characteristics in a particular instance. In this instance, you could very well say that there's reason for Rowling to do so. The characters are trying to conceal themselves from view, hiding in a forested area at sundown. Given that Hermione (unlike Harry and Buckbeak) is otherwise concealed, having Caucasian features will thus stand out rather starkly, being immediately noticeable.

At the very least, that's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw; certainly, no more unreasonable than "white face = scared."

Alzrius said:

I suppose you could read it that way. But you could just as easily read it as referring to race.

That's because people do call out particular characteristics (e.g. "his white face" or "her black face") if there's a reason to emphasize said characteristics in a particular instance. In this instance, you could very well say that there's reason for Rowling to do so. The characters are trying to conceal themselves from view, hiding in a forested area at sundown. Given that Hermione (unlike Harry and Buckbeak) is otherwise concealed, having Caucasian features will thus stand out rather starkly, being immediately noticeable.

At the very least, that's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw; certainly, no more unreasonable than "white face = scared."

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yeah, that's a far stretch to assume "Hermione's white face was sticking out from behind a tree" was referring to a black character.

stereotypically speaking, to a white observer, I'd doubt we could tell if a black person was blushing or "had gone pale" with fright. Their skin tone is too dark and masks such variance that is far more obvious on a pale complexion face. Black people most likely do not go "white as a sheet". I of course, stand to be corrected by Danny who has way more experience on the subject. I'm certain there's cues or subtlety white folk might not be used to. I'd wonder if black people can recognize blushing or going pale on a white person for the same reason (what are we used to).

Therefore, to a reasonable reader of that text from that book, Hermione was just defined as a white girl, and Rowling forgot. It happens.

Doesn't mean she has to be that way, which is certainly what Rowling likely intended with her point about not explicitly saying Hermione was white.

Rowling's been retroactively canon-izing traits about her more loosely defined characters for years. One's gay. One's jewish. All because she hadn't explicitly said anything about those characters whose names appeared in her books when she wrote them. IMO, she is doing so to drive her social acceptance agenda (which is fine, and is her right to do so). However, I assert that it is BS that she specifically thought to do so back when she started writing or she should have explicitly defined the characters that way. Fact is, it was not pertinent that a 2nd grader at Hogwarts was gay, trans, jewish, alien-human hybrid or not to the telling of Harry Potter's story. Doing so may in fact have detracted as mommy read to Timmy, and had to stop and explain what a gay/jewish/transexual second grader is. It's like extra #65 on the movie set stopping production to ask what his motivation is in the crowd scene at the train station.

Janx said:

yeah, that's a far stretch to assume "Hermione's white face was sticking out from behind a tree" was referring to a black character.

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Rowling is a Brit, like Morrus. Maybe it's a common thing to them. We, as Americans, may not have that same reference... or at least not to the extent that some Brits might.

stereotypically speaking, to a white observer, I'd doubt we could tell if a black person was blushing or "had gone pale" with fright. Their skin tone is too dark and masks such variance that is far more obvious on a pale complexion face. Black people most likely do not go "white as a sheet". I of course, stand to be corrected by Danny who has way more experience on the subject. I'm certain there's cues or subtlety white folk might not be used to. I'd wonder if black people can recognize blushing or going pale on a white person for the same reason (what are we used to).

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There are various shades of "black" in people. Some are darker than others. Some are very light skinned. Even so, I've seen some very dark black people that you could easily see the change in tone when scared and sick.

Rowling's been retroactively canon-izing traits about her more loosely defined characters for years. One's gay. One's jewish. All because she hadn't explicitly said anything about those characters whose names appeared in her books when she wrote them. IMO, she is doing so to drive her social acceptance agenda (which is fine, and is her right to do so). However, I assert that it is BS that she specifically thought to do so back when she started writing or she should have explicitly defined the characters that way. Fact is, it was not pertinent that a 2nd grader at Hogwarts was gay, trans, jewish, alien-human hybrid or not to the telling of Harry Potter's story. Doing so may in fact have detracted as mommy read to Timmy, and had to stop and explain what a gay/jewish/transexual second grader is. It's like extra #65 on the movie set stopping production to ask what his motivation is in the crowd scene at the train station.

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You know, I agree with that in a way. A few years ago there was this whole thing about Dumbledorf being gay. People were praising Rowling for putting a gay character in such a successful book and movie series. Something about her being brave. The thing is, she did it after the books were all published and the movies were all out. I thought that was a cop-out on her part. She put it out there after she made her billions, and the fans had no choice but to accept it. That being said, there was no reason to point out him being gay in the stories. It wouldn't really add to the story.

Morrus said:

That's not a reference to skin colour. Nobody ever, ever says "his white face" or "her black face" or any variation on that, referring to skin colour. That would be such a weird, odd thing to say or write. I'm not exactly a fan of Rowling's writing, but even she doesn't write that badly.

It's a common reference to being scared. It's not referring to race.

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I read it in the same manner of what Alzrius says: The way the line is written ("Her white face was sticking out from behind a tree") sounds more like the author is trying to convey that her white features are particularly noticeable in the otherwise dark surrounding.

While I'm sure we could make the case for certain facial expressions being slightly more noticeable than others (a gleaming smile should be easier to spot in the darkness than a shut mouth, for instance), it would seem odd to me for the author to express it in such a manner, considering how little difference would "calm face" and "scared face" have in such context.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Assuming the change wasn't made just for the sake of change, or to mix in colors, and it was just the casting director deciding that this was the best actor that auditioned for the part, what is it that you don't like?

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To me, it would just hard to see the adult Hermione as black when I watched several movies in which she was white child. I don't know, maybe it isn't the most logical of opinions but if someone were to make a movie of me as a child and then as an adult it wouldn't feel right if one of them was acted out by a black actor and the other by a white actor because it wouldn't seem like the same person.

Janx said:

I'm sure he knows racism is wrong.

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And this has nothing to do with it. I sincerely hope Janx is not calling me a racist just because I dislike the idea of changing the race of a character. I would feel the same way if the positions were reversed, if Hermione as a girl had been portrayed as a black girl and then she was being portrayed as a white adult. Or Asian or Hispanic or whatever race.

I guess what I dislike is the change. I wouldn't like it if in the next season of Game of Thrones Tyrion Lannister was portrayed by a six foot four person because the previous actor left the show for whatever reason. [Please don't call me prejudice against tall people because of this!] To me the change just wouldn't feel right, even if the new actor was amazingly skillful.

Dog Moon said:

And this has nothing to do with it. I sincerely hope Janx is not calling me a racist just because I dislike the idea of changing the race of a character. I would feel the same way if the positions were reversed, if Hermione as a girl had been portrayed as a black girl and then she was being portrayed as a white adult. Or Asian or Hispanic or whatever race.

I guess what I dislike is the change. I wouldn't like it if in the next season of Game of Thrones Tyrion Lannister was portrayed by a six foot four person because the previous actor left the show for whatever reason. [Please don't call me prejudice against tall people because of this!] To me the change just wouldn't feel right, even if the new actor was amazingly skillful.

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Nope. definitely not intending to calling you a racist. I was inarticulately defending you, in fact.

I was pretty sure your reasoning was as you said.