Fury over Black Hermione Granger

Morrus · Dec 23, 2015

Janx said:
"Hermione's white face stuck out from behind the tree" most clearly tells me she was seen because she is pale and the night is dark and her head was sticking out from behind a tree.

Yes, you've made it very explicitly clear that's what it says to you. Don't worry. I didn't fail to understand you.

It does little to imply fear in that sentence.

To you. To me, it very much implies fear.

Rowling forgot she wrote that little sentence, and made a declaration that Hermione is raceless in the book, when had she really envisioned a non-white girl and envisioned the scene in actuality, would have come to a different description.

If your position has fallen to inventing what an author does or does not remember or envision, in contrast to what she actually says, I don't really see the point of this conversation.

It may be perfectly cromulent, but the glove does not fit. the probability that an author would describe a black character hiding behind a tree with their head sticking out as "white face" would be one of ignorance to the actual visuals of the scene.

Basically, go get a white and black friend, wait until night, and take some pictures of them hiding behind a tree with their head sticking out. Heck, film it. Then draw a gun on them, to get the blanched fear look.

Pretty sure you won't be using the word "white face" to describe the black friend (even without the gun, that's just dangerous), except to be contrary.

You're confused. It's a perfectly common phrase used to describe fear. The fact that it's not familiar *to you personally* is completely irrelevant.

But this is getting silly now. I've no intention of repeating myself over and over, or responding to the same posts over and over, and clearly you're not going to be convinced, so I'll drop out of the debate having made my position and opinion clear. We very much disagree on that particular quirk of language, and what it means.

Janx · Dec 23, 2015

I thought of some other experiments (no guns!)

bear in mind, none of my opinion matters on my beef with Rowling's revisions of character definitions. Her actual choices on these characters are just fine either way. If you never see a tweet/comment from her and just read the books, you'll envision the characters your way anyway.

Which is another experiment.

Take a black kid who hasn't heard of/seen Harry Potter. Hand them the book, with the cover art on it. Let them read it.

Then ask them to describe the characters. See if they mention race. If they don't, followup and ask them. Maybe they envision them all as being black.

Another test:
we know in the movie, at least one girl is black, because she announces all the games, etc. How does Rowling describe her in the book? if she defines her race, and not the others, then there is a pattern of defaulting going on that everybody is white until the author says otherwise. That is most likely how a white reader will interpret it.

Otherwise, the author is playing a "shame on you for assuming..." trick on the reader for not naturally imagining a diverse cast unlike the reader.

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 23, 2015

My take on "white face" is that a white author used a perfectly common phrase to describe the appearance of someone going pale with fear and used it, without thinking about the race of the character, since she had never mentioned the character's previously.

That a different phrase might be used by persons of a different ethnicity to describe the blanching of the face in fear* may not have even entered her head because:

1) she didn't know there was one
2) she had no concept of the character's race at all

Ascribing a motive of revision- while something JKR has been said to do- is unnecessary.

* yet another common phrase for the phenomenon deriving from the French for- yes- "white"

Janx · Dec 23, 2015

Morrus said:
Yes, you've made it very explicitly clear that's what it says to you. Don't worry. I didn't fail to understand you.

To you. To me, it very much implies fear.

If your position has fallen to inventing what an author does or does not remember or envision, in contrast to what she actually says, I don't really see the point of this conversation.

You're confused. It's a perfectly common phrase used to describe fear. The fact that it's not familiar *to you personally* is completely irrelevant.

But this is getting silly now. I've no intention of repeating myself over and over, or responding to the same posts over and over, and clearly you're not going to be convinced, so I'll drop out of the debate having made my position and opinion clear. We very much disagree on that particular quirk of language, and what it means.

I am quite familiar with the phrase as used to describe fear. Your insult to my competence is noted. Most cases of its usage likely would be more clear than whether her face was white, or white with fear. I believe an author would word it differently if they intended "white with fear." otherwise, of course, we are mincing her words as to her intent. Which if it's not obvious to us on what to agree that she meant, maybe her sentence wasn't that well constructed, thus part of my point.

As to inventing, no, I am speculating on the probability of human behavior based on the existing examples. For instance, Bob Salvatore has admitted that he does not remember all the details of his books, and thus, some contradictions are possible. it is more probable that Rowling does not remember this ONE sentence where she associated the word white with Hermione that might contradict her alleged plan to make Hermione raceless. One could argue that she only made one writing mistake in that goal, and that it is the mistake that should be disregarded.

I believe it is possible that Rowling has contradicted herself or invented a meaning/intent after the fact. Not a crime.

This is much like the GMing argument of whether the GM should stick to exactly what's written on the paper, or adjust some things after the fact in play, while hoping not to contradict themselves.

In Rowling's case, it rubs me the wrong way.

Umbran · Dec 23, 2015

Dog Moon said:
Well, the thing is for me, I've never read any of the books.

So, whose statement on the appearance of Aragorn is the most important - Tolkien's, or Peter Jackson's?

The books are the primary source - it is well known that movies change things from the book content, or define things if they were not explicitly set by the author. It seems to me that the stage play is fine if it cares more about what is said in the books than what is done in the movie.

And being white isn't an important trait of Batman and could easily be changed without altering what makes him who he is, but it IS one of his characteristics and one way we use to identify him just as the white Hermione is how we identify who she is.

Spider Man: Miles Morales. So awesome a character change that they've bent over backwards to make it so this alternate-universe character made it into the standard continuity.

Janx · Dec 24, 2015

Umbran said:
So, whose statement on the appearance of Aragorn is the most important - Tolkien's, or Peter Jackson's?

The books are the primary source - it is well known that movies change things from the book content, or define things if they were not explicitly set by the author. It seems to me that the stage play is fine if it cares more about what is said in the books than what is done in the movie.

Spider Man: Miles Morales. So awesome a character change that they've bent over backwards to make it so this alternate-universe character made it into the standard continuity.

That's cool that they found a way to explain it.

I imagine PJ might have had a problem if he tried to spread the skin colors around on the Tolkien races, even though it probably makes sense to do so, and odds are good Tolkien might never have thought to make anybody not-white.

Fixing an oversight, like all the original comic super heroes being white is complicated, but we should probably support them doing it.

Umbran · Dec 24, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
That a different phrase might be used by persons of a different ethnicity to describe the blanching of the face in fear* ...

Oh, and another movie quote that's perhaps relevant....

"I'm Winston Zeddmore, Your Honor. I've only been with the company for a couple of weeks, but these things are real. Since I joined these men, I've seen **** that'll turn you white."
-Winston Zeddmore, Ghostbusters

This said by a black character, to a white mayor of NYC (as if anyone here didn't recognize it)...

Janx · Dec 24, 2015

Umbran said:
Oh, and another movie quote that's perhaps relevant....

"I'm Winston Zeddmore, Your Honor. I've only been with the company for a couple of weeks, but these things are real. Since I joined these men, I've seen **** that'll turn you white."
-Winston Zeddmore, Ghostbusters

This said by a black character, to a white mayor of NYC (as if anyone here didn't recognize it)...

Though arguably, it does not seem confusing in this context that he could have meant, "you homme's, this stuff so bad it'll turn you white" to mean his black friends would be at risk of being Caucasians.

I don't think so. in this context, it's obvious he's talking about fear.

Whereas, a white person who is unafraid, hiding behind a tree but peaking out will be spotted by somebody holding a lamp and seeing the light reflected on their face at some distance away. it is logical, to be read that way, as it is to read it that she was so pale with fear that her face stood out. It's ambiguously written and for a white character, always resolves to being detectable regardless of interpretation, whereas a black character, might not. I doubt many people struggled over that passage, but I wonder what picture they had in their mind.

Janx · Dec 24, 2015

Alzrius said:
Just to nitpick (this is from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban):

In re-reading that passage, I'm still not even sure they are eliciting terror from the kids.

They are out sneaking, listening in on a meeting a Hagrids.

scared of getting caught maybe, but not blood draining terror as they hide from a monster.

As I have actually hunted and hidden from, white people in the forest in the dark, I can tell you that faces and regular patterns (straight lines, fabric patterns) give away somebody quite easily in the dark.

Thus, a white girl, peeking out from behind a tree, was likely to be spotted because of her white face. Best thing to do is look away or down, and not at the person looking for you to cast your face in shadow so light doesn't reflect and make it obvious that there's a face in the darkness.

To each their own. But if you assumed the characters were white (like the movies depicted) and knew something of stealth, you could easily deduce she was visible because of her skin color and head sticking out, regardless of any other parameters.

I am not sure how well a black girl would stand out. In the few times, I've seen black people in the dark, I've been struck by how brilliant white their teeth and eyes stand out. Maybe 20 feet away behind a tree I might not see that, but I know I'd have a very difficult time seeing them if their eyes were closed and mouth was shut facing me in the dark, behind a tree.

Either way, Harry could see her.

Dog Moon · Dec 24, 2015

Umbran said:
So, whose statement on the appearance of Aragorn is the most important - Tolkien's, or Peter Jackson's?

The books are the primary source - it is well known that movies change things from the book content, or define things if they were not explicitly set by the author. It seems to me that the stage play is fine if it cares more about what is said in the books than what is done in the movie.

I would say it depends on the audience and what they're basing their experiences on. I'm sure there are differences in opinion of those only familiar with the books, those only familiar with the movies and those who are not familiar with any of the previous resources.

Umbran said:
Spider Man: Miles Morales. So awesome a character change that they've bent over backwards to make it so this alternate-universe character made it into the standard continuity.

For example this: I have absolutely no idea who Miles Morales is, so I have no judgment on this character at all. People can only judge based on their own experiences.

In the case of Hermione, I am judging everything based on my own experiences from watching the movies and not reading the books, so I can only compare future endevours to the movies, such as changing her from white to black, regardless of what she might have been from the movie. It doesn't mean a person's view based on the books are any less important than my views based on the movie, however, just different sources.