D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day

BoldItalic said:

It's an interesting experiment but I think the way the goals are set might be the elephant in the room.

You will presumably be defining a metric that lets you place a break point between "DMG guideliness are okay" and "DMG guidelines are not okay" in terms of resource depletion (in the most general sense) or some other parameter, but the DM has the power to move the result above or below the breakpoint by tweaking the encounter goals whilst still complying with the guidelines.

For example, suppose the DM places an encounter consisting of an Archmage allied with a Beholder. According to the guidelines, that's a Hard encounter. But there's a world of difference between monster goals of

• Put all the PCs to sleep so the Archmage can steal all their magic items and run away
• Delay the party by 4 rounds even if you both die in the attempt
• Kill the dwarf at all costs

and so on, in terms not only of how the encounter will play out but in terms of what can be judged successful or unsuccessful in terms of party resource depletion.

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Remember though that the Creating Encounters guidelines (starting on DMG page 81) includes character objectives which aren't limited to Kill All Monsters. A previous section on building adventures talks about villains and their particular motives and actions they take to meet their goals. These need to be taken into consideration in my view when building engaging challenges within the constraints of the recommend XP budgets and CR.

iserith said:

Remember though that the Creating Encounters guidelines (starting on DMG page 81) includes character objectives which aren't limited to Kill All Monsters. A previous section on building adventures talks about villains and their particular motives and actions they take to meet their goals. These need to be taken into consideration in my view when building engaging challenges within the constraints of the recommend XP budgets and CR.

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Yes, it's okay. I'm probably worrying about nothing. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out

If you put a lot of effort into designing encounter (AKA Tuckers Kobolds) you might be able to make the level encounter guidelines work. I ahd the same problem in 3E though where you start using an excessive amount of ambushes, terrain et in order to make the encounters harder.

We were using multiple hard+ and deadly encounters including things like deadly X3 or 4 over the xp budget or swarms. Party composition matters a lot though as something like this.

Light/Nature Cleric
Paladin (Oath of Ancients)
Abjurer
Lore Bard

Can nullify a lot of things.

Are we expected to rock on up to an online gaming table and test this out and do you want to deliberately try to break the rules through excessive powergaming as a stress test?

One recommendation on magic items for this experiment. Go with the DMG guidelines and roll for the items. Take a CR 4, 7 and 11 hoard and roll the dice and hand out the items that way. Or don't allow magic items at all. If you are testing daily encounter guidelines they are written with characters having 0 permanent items. Rolling at least makes it unlikely that characters will have perfect synergies with their abilities.

Zardnaar said:

If you put a lot of effort into designing encounter (AKA Tuckers Kobolds) you might be able to make the level encounter guidelines work. I ahd the same problem in 3E though where you start using an excessive amount of ambushes, terrain et in order to make the encounters harder.

We were using multiple hard+ and deadly encounters including things like deadly X3 or 4 over the xp budget or swarms. Party composition matters a lot though as something like this.

Light/Nature Cleric
Paladin (Oath of Ancients)
Abjurer
Lore Bard

Can nullify a lot of things.

Are we expected to rock on up to an online gaming table and test this out and do you want to deliberately try to break the rules through excessive powergaming as a stress test?

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I want a mixed party. It's pretty rare everyone in the group min-maxes to the absolute maximum. A little min-maxing each character is common in my group, but sometimes people like to try different things out. That should be taken into account.

Ryken the Paladin

Ryken: Half-elf male Oath of Vengeance Paladin 13
(Stat Points: 27, Half-elf racial bonuses: +1 Str, +1 Con, +2 Cha)
Medium Male Humanoid
Armor Class 20 (plate armor, shield)
Hit Points 121 (13d10+39)
Speed 30 ft.
Senses Darkvision 60ft.
Str 16 (+3) Dex 10 (+0) Con 16 (+3)
Int 8 (-1) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 18 (+4)
Alignment chaotic neutral
Languages common, elvish, giant.

TRAITS
Proficiency (+5)
Saving Throws: Wis, Cha, Con
Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Skill Versatility (Perception, Survival)

SKILLS Perception +5, Survival +5, Intimidation +10, Athletics +8, Insight +5, Medicine +5.

LEVEL BONUSES: Warcaster, Resilient: Con, +1 str/+1 cha.

ACTIONS
Melee Attacks— Longsword: +8 (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 1d8+3
Ranged Attack—Dagger: +5 to hit (range 20/60 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+3 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Longbow: +5 to hit (range 150/600 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d8+3 piercing damage

EQUIPMENT


PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Background -Soldier (Officer in military)
Feature: Military Rank (Officer in king's military-On assignment to guard king's daughter)
Skill Proficiencies-Athletics (Str), Intimidation (Cha)
Tool Proficiencies: Chess equivalent game, Vehicles (Land)
Appearance: Ryken is a tall, grim man with shoulder-length black hair and thousand yard stare green eyes. He never smiles.
Traits: I can stare down a hell hound without flinching.
Ideals: Responsibility (I am sworn to protect the king's daughter or avenge her death.)
Bond: My loyalty to my king and his daughter is absolute.
Flaw: I am the queen's bastard son after she was raped by the king's enemy. No one can find out.

Tim the Archer

Tim: Wood Elf male Eldritch Knight Fighter 13
(Stat Points: 27, High-elf racial bonuses: +2 Dex, +1 wis)
Medium Female Humanoid
Armor Class 20 (plate armor, shield)
Hit Points 121 (13d10+39)
Speed 35 ft.
Senses Darkvision 60ft.
Str 10 (+0) Dex 20 (+5) Con 16 (+3)
Int 12 (+1) Wis 13 (+1) Cha 8 (-1)
Alignment chaotic neutral
Languages common, elvish.

TRAITS
Proficiency (+5)
Tools:
Saving Throws: Str, Con, Wis
Darkvision
Keen Senses
Fey Ancestry
Trance
Elf Weapon Training
Fleet of Foot
Mask of the Wild

SKILLS

LEVEL BONUSES: Sharpshooter, +2 Dex, Res: Wisdom, +1 Dex/+1 Con.

ACTIONS
Melee Attacks— Short Sword/Dagger: +5/+5 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 1d6+3/1d4 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Dagger: +5 to hit (range 20/60 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+3 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Longbow: +5 to hit (range 150/600 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d8+3 piercing damage

EQUIPMENT


PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Background -Outlander (From deep in forests in wood elf kingdoms)
Feature: Wanderer
Skill Proficiencies-Athletics (Str), Survival (Wis)
Tool Proficiencies: Herbalism Kit (Modified Outlander background)
Languages: Sylvan
Appearance: A slim, athletic wood elf of medium height with coppery skin, light brown hair, and hazel eyes. Tim always seems calm and composed, even when there's no reason he should be.
Traits: I'm driven by wanderlust that led me away from home.
Ideals: Curiosity (I want to see and learn about everything.)
Bond: My loyalty is to the few I choose to call friends.
Flaw: Nearly everything can be solved with an arrow.

Dom the Cleric

Tim: Hill Dwarf Cleric of Life 13
(Stat Points: 27, Hill Dwarf racial bonuses: +2 Con, +1 wis)
Medium Female Humanoid
Armor Class 17 (breastplate, shield)
Hit Points 133 (13d8+65)
Speed 30 ft.
Senses Darkvision 60ft.
Str 11 (+0) Dex 10 (+0) Con 18 (+4)
Int 10 (+1) Wis 20 (+5) Cha 10 (+0)
Alignment neutral
Languages common, elvish, dwarven.

TRAITS
Proficiency (+5)
Tools:
Saving Throws: Wis, Cha, Con.
Darkvision
Dwarven Resilience
Dwarven Combat Training
Tool Training (Mason's tools)
Stonecunning
Dwarven Toughness (+13 hit points)
Ritual Casting
Channel Divinity (2/short rest)
Destroy Undead (CR 2)
Divine Intervention
Disciple of Life
Channel Divinity: Preserve Life
Blessed Healer

SKILLS Insight +10, Persuasion +5, Medicine +10, Religion +5.

LEVEL BONUSES: Res: Con, +2 Wis, +2 Wis.

ACTIONS
Melee Attacks— Warhammer: +5 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 1d8+0 bludgeoning damage
Ranged Attack—Dagger: +5 to hit (range 20/60 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+0 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Spell: +10 spell attack roll.


EQUIPMENT holy symbol, explorer's pack, permanent components for spells, 2: uses of consumable spells, 5: uses greater restoration,

SPELLS (4/3/3/3/2/1/1 plus 5 cantrips-DC 18 spell saves; +10 spell attack roll)
Cantrips: sacred flame, resistance, guidance, mending, spare they dying
[Spells known: 18 plus domain]
1st bless-D, cure wounds-D, healing word, protection from evil and good
2nd: lesser restoration-D, spiritual weapon-D, aid, prayer of healing
3rd: beacon of hope-D, revivify-D, dispel magic, protection from energy, water walk
4th: death ward-D, guardian of faith-D, banishment, freedom of movement, divination, control water
5th: mass cure wounds-D, raise dead-D, greater restoration, flame strike
6th: heal, blade barrier, harm, true seeing
7th: divine word

PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Background -Guild Artisan (Dom is a dwarf merchant that buys and sells items recovered from adventuring)
Feature: Guild Membership
Skill Proficiencies-Insight (Wis), Persuasion (Cha)
Tool Proficiencies: Miners' Tools
Languages: Elvish
Appearance: A handsome blonde dwarf with a well-groomed beard and friendly blue eyes. He has a disarming demeanor and is friendly for a dwarf.
Traits: I find wealth is often buried in dangerous and hidden places. Finding and extracting that wealth is profitable.
Ideals: Profit (I like money. What dwarf doesn't?)
Bond: Friendship is valuable. Never leave a friend to die or they might do the same to you. It is better to die with friends than alone.
Flaw: I'll do anything to get my hands on something rare or priceless.

Seebo the Wizard

Seebo: Forest Gnome Wizard (Abjurer) 13
(Stat Points: 27, Forest Gnome racial bonuses: +2 int, +1 dex)
Small male Humanoid
Armor Class 13 (No armor)
Hit Points 93 (13d6+39)
Speed 25 ft.
Senses Darkvision 60ft.
Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 16 (+3)
Int 20 (+5) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 8 (-1)
Alignment neutral
Languages common, gnomish.

TRAITS
Proficiency (+5)
Tools:
Saving Throws: Int, Wis, Con.
Darkvision
Gnome Cunning
Natural Illusionist (Minor Illusion cantrip)
Speak with Small Beasts

SKILLS: Sleight of Hand (Dex) +8, Stealth +8, Insight +5, Investigation +10.

LEVEL BONUSES: Res: Con, +2 int, +1 int/con.

ACTIONS
Melee Attacks— Dagger: +4 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+3 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Dagger: +8 to hit (range 20/60 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+3 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Spell: +10 to hit (varies).
Hit: varies.

EQUIPMENT


PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Background -Urchin (Seebo grew up on the streets)
Feature: City Secrets
Skill Proficiencies-Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex)..
Tool Proficiencies: Disguise Kit, Thieves' Tools
Appearance: A slightly under three foot deep gnome with light tan skin and hazel eyes. Seebo is fairly non-descript and extremely quiet. He very rarely speaks.
Traits: I like to eat because food was rare when I was younger.
Ideals: People. I help the people that help me-it's how we stay alive.
Bond: I owe my survival to Princess Jubali. She found me on the street and paid for wizardly education. She says gnomes make good wizards.
Flaw: I will do anything to please Princess Jubali. She's had me do some really stupid and dangerous things.

Celtavian said:

Seebo: Forest Gnome Wizard (Evoker) 13
(Stat Points: 27, Forest Gnome racial bonuses: +2 int, +1 dex)
Small male Humanoid
Armor Class 20 (plate armor, shield)
Hit Points 93 (13d6+39)
Speed 30 ft.
Senses Darkvision 60ft.
Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 16 (+3)
Int 20 (+5) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 8 (-1)
Alignment chaotic neutral
Languages common, elvish.

TRAITS
Proficiency (+5)
Tools:
Saving Throws: Wis, Cha,
Darkvision
Keen Senses
Fey Ancestry
Trance
Elf Weapon Training
Fleet of Foot
Mask of the Wild

SKILLS

LEVEL BONUSES: Res: Con, +2 int, +1 int/con.

ACTIONS
Melee Attacks— Short Sword/Dagger: +5/+5 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 1d6+3/1d4 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Dagger: +5 to hit (range 20/60 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d4+3 piercing damage
Ranged Attack—Longbow: +5 to hit (range 150/600 ft; one creature).
Hit: 1d8+3 piercing damage

EQUIPMENT


PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Background -Noble (Daughter of human king of a small kingdom that married an elf woman)
Feature: Position of Privilege
Skill Proficiencies-History (Int), Persuasion (Cha)
Tool Proficiencies: Cards (She enjoys card games that are a mix of chance and skill)
Languages: Sylvan
Appearance: A strikingly beautiful, silvery blond-haired woman with a lithe, voluptuous build and vibrant sky-blue eyes filled with whimsy. Her voice is flirtatious and musical.
Traits: I am always in motion like the wind dancing across the world.
Ideals: Independence (I am beholden to no one and refuse to be confined by the world of human nobility)
Bond: My loyalty to my mother is unwavering.
Flaw: In fact, the world does revolve around me.

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Everything after the ablity scores is all the same text for all 5 PCs?