Will Adventurer's League be profitable to our cafe?

Hi All,

Just wondering on what are your thoughts on if I start Adventurer's League/be a coordinator/DM be profitable on our boardgame cafe be profitable?

I imagine providing the materials, be the coordinator etc. and giving allowance to my stay-in DMs and charging players per session. Assuming we can run 2 D&D tables weekly, as per costing this may not be self sustaining in the long run...

I know there are lots of variables, but what are your thoughts on this? Or anybody who have invested on this, any feedback?
 

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kilpatds

Explorer
At the cafe I play at weekly, I'd guess 1/2 the players buy a coffee or something. I don't think the cafe gives any money out (ie: no supporting the DMs or buying adventures)... but we're moderately loud and take up space for 4 hours... but I'm guessing this is at an hour where the "loud" part is less relevant?

I don't know how that's working for them financially.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Sounds like a cover charge for gaming. I think the result will be determined by how much is the cover and what you are serving.
 

SwivSnapshot

First Post
My apologies for the late reply. I don't normally frequent this section of the forums, but after a weekend of AL at GaryCon that needs to change.

Based on conversations with my friends who own an FLGS, providing play space for gaming is almost always done at a loss unless you can land frequent tournament play like MTG. A couple of factors to consider-

(a) Are you paying an employee to be on site and close the cafe when the game is done?
(b) If you are staying to keep the cafe open, what is it preventing you from accomplishing IRL? The burnout can happen really fast- imagine these same people camping out in your dining room every Wednesday night, then remember that it's AL and you will have strangers also dropping in.
(c) How does your existing customer base likely to respond to loud and exuberant players chearing about the party's half orc barbarian slaying a (censored) mind flyer with a critical hit with (censored) (censored) +3 battle axe.

I hope you keep looking into it because more gaming is more better, but I would suggest starting with board games and seeing how it goes.

Good luck!!!
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Would need to know more about your situation. What country/city you are in and what your general business model it. Unless you sell alcohol and are aiming for adult AL games, I think it might be hard to see AL helping your bottom line unless run at a slow time that you remain open anyway.

Game stores have incentives for bringing organized play in as they increase opportunities for players to buy merchandise while at the store. Gaming stores can add to this by selling food, drink, and charging a small table fee.

For a restaurant, coffee shop, or bar, is a table of gamers buying enough food and drink to cover what you need to make for them to take those spots for 4-6 hours? You could charge for the use of the space or set a minimum order fee, but you may find it difficult for people to pay that, especially on a weekly basis.

I don't want to discourage you. I really hope you find a way to make this profitable because it would only help the hobby. But, in America at least, I think it is a challenge to make money off of providing gaming space.

This is one thing I miss about living in Taiwan. Because space is at such a premium, people are willing to pay hourly fees for space at clubs, bars, cafes, etc. Back in the 90s in Taipei and other large cities, they had these great lounges where you could rent a large comfortable chair and table to a large table with sofas and chairs, to a private room. They had a large library of comics. You paid an hourly rate that would include tea, snacks, and rental of comics, and you had a button at the table to call wait staff to order meals, alcohol, etc. I wished I had a gaming group when I lived their, it would have been a great place to game.

In America, even in cities like New York, it is hard to find venues like that. Actually, on my last trip to New York, I joined a game group that met in the basement of one those cafe/buffet/convenience stores that you see all over the place. In the evening the lower level was empty evening the the store was open for people walking in to get snacks, cigarettes, bachelor dinners takeouts, etc. So we didn't pay a thing to take up a couple large tables for a few hours. They didn't mind because we were buying drinks and snacks and they were not otherwise using the space.

Where I have seen it work are at game stores. My kids and I go to Fantasy Flight Game's gaming room and cafe a couple times a month. We bring our own games or play games from their library. We pay about USD 25-35 for food and drinks for the three of us (when I game there with my friends, it is much more, because beer) and we take up a large table for about 3 hours. But Fantasy Flight is a game publisher. This space and cafe are not how they make their money. It helps support their products by giving people a chance to play their games and by hosting events there. Also, I rarely leave there without paying 15-30 dollars on SOMETHING from their store. It is not uncommon for me to plunk down a $100 or more on board games.

If I owned a cafe or restaurant here in Minnesota, I might try the following.

First, I would want to have space set apart from other customers, if not an event room, then tables off to the side.

Second, gamers like big tables. If you only have small square or circle tables, I don't think gaming events will be very popular.

Third, I would avoid hosting campaigns. Instead, start with everything-included one-offs. Partner with an experienced DM and come up with some profit-sharing arrangement. Run a 4-hour event with a cover charge that includes a meal, maybe unlimited soft drinks, all gaming materials, and I would try to work with a DM that can provide terrain and minis, etc. Maybe have the table set up near a flat-screen display for use of digital aids.

Maybe, in your area, if you provide a great experience, you could charge 20-30 a seat for Dinner and D&D. Problem is for many players that price might seem high, even though you easily pay that for 45-60 minutes having dinner at a lower-end restaurant. Also, if you have the seats taken up for 4 hours, $5-6 an hour per seat isn't that great, especially if you are paying the DM in money or free food. I think it might make more sense if you (1) own the cafe and (2) are the DM. So long as you are not losing seats to more profitable customers, it might be a good way to enjoy combining gaming with your cafe business.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. Please post back with what you decide to do and let us know how it goes.
 

We don't have any cafe/gaming venues in my location but I did have a chance to play at Card Kingdom in Ballard (Seattle) a while back. Beautiful game store that has a couple of rentable game rooms and a cafe (with alcohol) area tailored to gaming as well, with access to a large board game library. In my area all the game stores have some sort of play space, at least the size of their retail space, which see significant use every night/weekend. I guess they see it as a way to keep interest up in gaming by providing a place people can go to play. Good luck!
 

Hi All,

Just wondering on what are your thoughts on if I start Adventurer's League/be a coordinator/DM be profitable on our boardgame cafe be profitable?

If you're already running a boardgame cafe then you almost certainly know your customers better than we do. As both a boardgamer and a tabletop roleplayer I haven't noticed that big a difference in the likelihood of buying snacks and drinks (both groups do), the odds of being rowdy or smashing things (neither group is but both groups can be clumsy), and the like. The only significant difference is that RPG groups are much more likely to end up as the same half dozen people turning up for the same table come hell or high water rather than being two people one week, twenty another. Oh, and when you have scum (and there are always scum in a large enough group) it's easier to have a five finger discount on RPG books than large boxed boardgames.
 

thethain

First Post
Honestly, I don't think adventure league brings a lot of money to its location of play. Most sessions will go by with the most likely purchases being snacks and drinks. For hobby stores around here, money comes from Magic. There's usually 4 magic expansions a year, each one can easily drain $100 from a competitive player.

DnD just doesn't have that level of churning out items, and worse yet, AL modules are exclusively released on dmsguild, meaning the local shops lose the chance to even snag a dollar per module released.

DnD is really great for players, because the cost of entry is basically borrowing a PHB and having a piece of paper with your info on it. The majority of the money is spent by DMs looking to actually run games. But unless you are purchasing every hardcover and AL module the DM still probably isn't spending what many of the Magic players are.

I try to spend 5 or 10 bucks at the local shop when I play, but even if everyone in the game kicked in that much you are looking at maybe 50 bucks for 4 hours. For a store, DnD is almost always going to be a loss leader, something that draws people to the location, and maybe other things catch their eyes and their dollars.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
DnD is really great for players, because the cost of entry is basically borrowing a PHB and having a piece of paper with your info on it. The majority of the money is spent by DMs looking to actually run games. But unless you are purchasing every hardcover and AL module the DM still probably isn't spending what many of the Magic players are.

Well, that depends. Some DMs spend a crazy amount of money on terrain, miniatures, miniature painting supplies, craft supplies, games aids. Not as much as tabletop miniature wargammers (though there certainly is an overlap), but still a lot. Game stores that also sell hobby supplies can do well by attracting those DMs. I don't know that AL does that, though WoTC does have AP-specific pre-painted miniature lines that tie-in with the current AI season.

Still, probably better having a table of miniature wargamers or board game players. TTRPG players just don't need to buy a lot of stuff to enjoy the hobby. Short of table fees or selling a lot of food and alcohol, I'm not sure how anyone can make money hosting TTRPG players.

Those that could afford the type of experience that would justify a profitable fee being charged for a table would likely rather just play at home.

Then again, lot's of FLGS provide play spaces and host Adventurer's League and Pathfinder Society and regularly have tables taken up by TTRPG players, whether organized play or not. Don't know how that makes them money. I figure for most FLGS it is a lifestyle business.
 

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