What ELSE do Fighters do?

Steverooo

First Post
Fighters fight, Magic Users use magic, Thieves thieve... but MUs and Thieves ALSO fight! So, what distinguishes the Fighter?

Right now, it's the ability to use heavy armor, all weapons, and Bonus Feats... Of course, other classes (especially Prestige Classes) ALSO get Bonus Feats!

As other classes get new Special Abilities and Bonus Feats (despite the fact that they are from a much more limited list, and often offer NO selection), many 3Ers yell that the Fighter's "Thunder" is being "stolen".

The problem, as I see it, is that Fighters are predicated upon something that everyone else can do (at least to some extent). The question is: How do we fix it?

Note to Moderators: "How to Fix the Fighter" could go in House Rules, yes, but then again, since it's a D&D class, it could go in D20 D&D, so I stuck it in general... It's gotta go someplace!

Anyway, how to fix the Fighter?

One way is to make him more flexible.... Up the skill points, and allow him to select a certain number of non-class, non-exclusive skills as "his" (or "her") class skills. Thus, almost every Fighter is (or at least could be) slightly different from the rest.

Another idea is to add new abilities that allow Fighters to be better Soldiers, instead of Warriors... In other words, new abilities that allow them to do what Fighters do best, and do it better than anyone else when they work collectively together: fighting in formation. (More on that, shortly!)

Another things 3e lacks, but Fighters should be able to do, is to command units of troops. This is something EVERY PC should be able to do, to some extent. The Leadership Feat should improve this ability. Barbarians should be able to commands large groups of Barbarians, and both Rangers and Paladins slightly larger units than other classes (especially if the Paladin is commanding holy troops of his type), and even Clerics, Monks, and Wizards should have some small ability (especially with their own kinds), but the Fighter should be the best at doing what Fighters have always done: commanding armies!

Probably the easiest way to handle this is to allow PCs to adequately control one non-mount "character" (animal companion, familiar, NPC, etc.) per level, PLUS any "bonus NPCs" for Leadership. The number is doubled for "similar creatures" (a Cleric or Paladin and his church-members, a Druid and his animals, a Rogue and his Guild-mates, etc.). The Fighter, however, gets and additional number of "controllable NPCs" per level.

In addition, Fighter-types (only) give a slight bonus to their units, when fighting in formation, based upon their level. Perhaps +1/10 levels. Thus, a typical Captain (seventh level) adds nothing, while a General of level 10 adds +1, and a 20th level Fighter adds +2 to units under his/her command. This number is used to improve the BAB and Morale of units under the General's command, as long as they are within their "Control Radius".

How far away troops can be and remain under the control of their commander would also be level dependent, and again, Fighters would be the best, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins next-best, and then the other classes.

Hence, Fighters can control more troops of disimilar sorts, from farther out, and have them attack better. Sounds much like a Fighter's job, to me!...

Another thing that can be done is to give level 10+ Fighters automatic proficiency in Siege Engines of various types. The other Fighter-type classes could get their choice of a few, and ALL classes could learn them via Feats, if they wanted to, but only the 20th level Fighter would receive them all (and how many Wizards would really want Assault Ladder Proficiency, anyway?) Again, this seems to me a job that Fighters should be doing; manning the catapults, battering rams, movable mantlets, picks, and screws! Whether assaulting the walls, or defending them, on land, aboard ships, etc., this is where the Fighter should both lead and shine, with Barbs, Rangers, and Paladins close seconds, and Rogues, Bards, and other such classes distant thirds.

(Note: Anyone could manage a small group of defenders inside the walls or aboard ship, but a Fighter's troops will be larger, under control more often, and attack/defend better.)

Since mobile troops will sooner or later pass outside a commander's control radius, military units will have to be organized just as they are in real life: with Captains under Generals, and Sergeants under them, etc. Units not under control (their commander is dead, or they're outside his/her control radius) will be more likely to panic, flee, act randomly, etc.

In order to reflect "Out of Control" troops, perhaps troops IN control could use their Commander's saves as their own (since these will generally be higher), while troops uncontrolled use their own, and suffer a -1 Morale Penalty.

Of course, all this is just begging for a mass-combat system...
 
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Jeph

Explorer
I'd use the Samurai class from OA, but change the good Will save to Reflex, and grant a bonus feat at lv. 1 instead of Ancestral Daisho, and drop HD do d8. In the theme of the Psychic Warrior, I'd also add Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat at level 6. It would look like this:

Attack: Good
Fort: Good
Ref: Good
Will: Poor
Skill Points: 4+Int mod/level
Hit Die: d8
Feats: levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20.
Weapon Specialization: Bonus bonus feat at level 6

As a kinda swashbuckley fighter thingummy . . .
 
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S'mon

Legend
Fighters fight, it's what they do. I think the problem is not that other characters can also fight, or that fighters have few skills out of combat, but that other characters can often fight better than the Fighter, at least at mid-high levels. Maybe Fighters need to be tougher? :)
 

All the fighter needs is some flashier feats at the higher levels. Feats that not only sound cool - like 'Whirlwind Attack' but would be useful from time to time. Feats that would able the fighter to master the entire meelee situation and grant him superior tactical advantages and spectacular, cinematic attack options.

Perhaps by specializing in different fighting styles that each would give him unique options.

Another way of giving the fighter more potence outside combat would be to try to make the existing feats usable in non-combat situations. 'Ambidexterity' could give a +2 bonus to Climb or whatever...
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
Steverooo said:


The problem, as I see it, is that Fighters are predicated upon something that everyone else can do (at least to some extent). The question is: How do we fix it?

[

Fighters fight (hence the name, :)). Sure everyone can do it, but fighters do it best. If some other class does it better, then perhaps that class needs to be toned down a bit. I think, IMHO, fighters are fine as they are and work well at what they are supposed to do.

Nothing to really fix IMHO....just me maybe.
 

Wicht

Hero
Seems like the ton of feats fighters get makes up for quite a bit.

Personally I think if I was going to change anything about the fighter, I would increase the number of skills available. Not an increase in skill points mind you but an increase in general skills that can be easily learned, like profession, craft, pick locks, etc. The fighter would thus not be as handy as a rogue but you could make them more of an individual. As it is, it seems like having easy access to only about five skills makes the fighters a bit more bland.
 

cerberus2112

First Post
I think the best way to "fix" the fighter would be to extend some of those absurd feat chains, like Whirlwind Attack. What would be a cool feat that would logically require Whirlwind Attack as a prerequisite? How about Great/Supreme Cleave, or Greater Weapon Specialization?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Steverooo said:
Fighters fight, Magic Users use magic, Thieves thieve... but MUs and Thieves ALSO fight! So, what distinguishes the Fighter?

By comparison to the Fighter, MUs and Rogues don't fight.

Wizards have a BAB, but by comparison, it's puny. It's there mostly to allow the occasional armor-ignoring touch attack. If you think a Wizard can fight, take away one of his other feats, give him a martial weapon feat and a sword, and put him up against an appropriate CR melee critter. Watch how quickly this wizard turns into a grease spot on the floor...

Rogues can fight, but they're only comparable if they use Sneak Attack, and that greatly limits their tactical options.

Fighters fight. They do it so bloody well that they really don't need anything else to be effective.
 

Cloudgatherer

First Post
Just to throw in a counter example... what else do barbarians do? They don't have the flexibility in feats compared to the fighter, same skill points (at least I think).
 

yennico

First Post
Re: Re: What ELSE do Fighters do?

Umbran said:


By comparison to the Fighter, MUs and Rogues don't fight.

Wizards have a BAB, but by comparison, it's puny. It's there mostly to allow the occasional armor-ignoring touch attack. If you think a Wizard can fight, take away one of his other feats, give him a martial weapon feat and a sword, and put him up against an appropriate CR melee critter. Watch how quickly this wizard turns into a grease spot on the floor...

Rogues can fight, but they're only comparable if they use Sneak Attack, and that greatly limits their tactical options.

Fighters fight. They do it so bloody well that they really don't need anything else to be effective.

I totally agree with Umbran.

Feats:
A fighter get feats and bonus feats. Who stops the fighter to take as a normal feat a social feat ? :)

Skills:
Who stops a fighter to take a cross class skill ? :) He has to pay 2 skill points for one rank but if he wants this skill .... :)

I agree with you, Steverooo at one point:
A high level character should have some kind of followers, etc. without the leadership feat. A 17th level wizard certainly had trained some apprentices during his life. A powerful high level character normally attracts followers by his power.

Just my 2 cents
yennico
 

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