What ELSE do Fighters do?

[Imperialus]

as a big fan of fighters I'd have to agree with Umbran. The CG halfelf fighter is probably my favorite character architype. I'll sometimes multiclass and take a level or two of Rouge later on to bump up the skill points, but I have never had an inbalanced character playing a vanilla fighter. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Sence Motive, Search, Intimidate and Spot as class skills, I think they make sence in context with the class, but I can live with them otherwise.

Personally, if I were to change the fighter class in any way for a campaign I was DMing I would allow a list of 3 or 4 "floating" class skills. You can present a list of 3 or 4 skills to me that you feel would best represent how you want your character to develop. Say for instance you wanted to play an elven warrior who relies on ambush tactics to protect his home. Perhaps you would take Move Silently, Hide and Listen and class skills.

 

[isoChron]

Well my experience is that a cleric is a better fighter than the Fighter himself. What good for are several feats if you can use them only in very specific situations ? See Whirlwind Attack. Cleave is only good against low HP critters but then a fireball would do better. Power Attack ... nice but most time my fighter can only use it in a charge at around 2. Most heavy monsters have a too high AC to use Power Attack. No gain if you hit once instead of 3 times a round.

Things like Weapon Focus (Attack +1 on one weapon type) along with Weapon Specialization (Damage +2 on one weapon type) are easily topped by the cleric (level6) casting GMW on his weapon (+2 to hit and damage on every weapon he wants).

Now you can say that a fighter (level 15) always dominates the cleric (level 15) as long as there is no magic involved ... but part of the cleric class IS magic. He wouldn't be CR 15 if he couldn't cast spells.
Oh, the AC ..... poor fighter ! No Greater Magic Vestment.
Oh, Stats ... no buff spells ... not even the possibility to raise a stat with a feat. (At epic levels this willl change...)

We did a one on one fight for training, our Tempus Cleric and my Fighter ... same level. He melted my 130 HP away like snow in the sun and I hit him 2 times for 30 damage.... Something must be wrong ... fighting frustrates me.
I wade into melee (after some rounds I can reach a significant foe) and for all damage I inflict I get hit at nearly equal amount.
The cleric cast flamestrikes, bladebarrier, bla bla, and if the melee finally comes to him he won't get hit because of his high AC.

Last session our cleric 15 didn't fear to fight a band of 3 Fire Giants, several ogres, multiple goblins (the cannon fodder stuff), and a troll with more than 220 HP and spellcasting ability ... alone.
He killed them all without getting a scratch ! What good for is a fighter ??????? Never take it

Oh well, I'm lamenting again. Forget it. Most time I have still very much fun in that group. Perhaps the world get's even a bit better with 3.5. Have a nice weekend.
BYE

 

[yennico]

Hello IsoChron,

Well my experience is that a cleric is a better fighter than the Fighter himself. What good for are several feats if you can use them only in very specific situations ? See Whirlwind Attack.

Other feats or class abilities can also used in specific situations (Sneak Attack of a Rogue)

Cleave is only good against low HP critters but then a fireball would do better.

You can not use a fireball in small closed rooms.

Power Attack ... nice but most time my fighter can only use it in a charge at around 2. Most heavy monsters have a too high AC to use Power Attack. No gain if you hit once instead of 3 times a round.

Your PC can also be improved by spells (bull´s strength, Greater Magic weapon, etc.)

Things like Weapon Focus (Attack +1 on one weapon type) along with Weapon Specialization (Damage +2 on one weapon type) are easily topped by the cleric (level6) casting GMW on his weapon (+2 to hit and damage on every weapon he wants).

Do your cleric player plays an egoistic PC
The cleric can cast GMW also on your weapon. This bonus stacks with your weapon focus and weapon spec bonus.
GMW uses a spell slot. GMW can be dispelled, your bonus gained by weapon focus and weapon spec. not.

Now you can say that a fighter (level 15) always dominates the cleric (level 15) as long as there is no magic involved ... but part of the cleric class IS magic. He wouldn't be CR 15 if he couldn't cast spells.
Oh, the AC ..... poor fighter ! No Greater Magic Vestment.
Oh, Stats ... no buff spells ... not even the possibility to raise a stat with a feat. (At epic levels this willl change...)

Your fighter can also recieve Greater Magic Vestment. Ask your cleric for this spell and also ask him for the other buff spells. At that level he should have enogh spell slots to cast the buff and support spells also on you.
Spells can be dispelled. At high level the enemy will have a spellcaster and this guy certainly will target a single PC with a greater dispelling or dispel magic and then the PC (cleric) certainly will loose some of his spell effects.

We did a one on one fight for training, our Tempus Cleric and my Fighter ... same level. He melted my 130 HP away like snow in the sun and I hit him 2 times for 30 damage.... Something must be wrong ... fighting frustrates me.

The cleric was improved by his buff and other spells ? That is an unfair fight. This fight will only be fair if either both PCs get the same spells on them or none of the PCs get a spell on them. Then the only advantage of the cleric is to heal himself in combat and to cast spells which causes damage.

I wade into melee (after some rounds I can reach a significant foe) and for all damage I inflict I get hit at nearly equal amount.
The cleric cast flamestrikes, bladebarrier, bla bla, and if the melee finally comes to him he won't get hit because of his high AC.

Egoistic Cleric

Last session our cleric 15 didn't fear to fight a band of 3 Fire Giants, several ogres, multiple goblins (the cannon fodder stuff), and a troll with more than 220 HP and spellcasting ability ... alone.
He killed them all without getting a scratch ! What good for is a fighter ??????? Never take it

I do not have the MM handy and I do not know the exact CRs of this monsters, but if the cleric killed them all without getting a scratch the DM played this enemies wrong.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[sithramir]

pointless to reply

I don't get your reply? He's comparing how a cleric has all these abilities above a fighter because of his spells. Yes the fighter can get those spells but NOT BY HIMSELF. The cleric doesn't need another cleric to do all this. he does it himself. Yes the fighter would be way more powerful with all the clerics spells on him but that'd mean he needs a spare cleric to do it! It kind of defeats the point of pinning one guy vs the other.

 

[isoChron]

Hi yennico.

Hm, ok of course can the cleric cast the same spells on the fighter but he doesn't have enough slots for that.
In 2nd level he has 7 spellslots (+domain): 2 bull strength (both for cleric so that they last all day) 2 endurance (both for cleric) 1 endurance (from domain for the wiz) 1 zone of truth, 1 silence, 1 hold person or delay poison.
in 3rd level he has 5 spellslots (+domain): 4 Magic Vestments (all for cleric), 1 daylight and I don't know about the domain spell
in 4th level he has 5 spellslots (+domain): 2 GMW (both for cleric), 1 or 2 restoration, spell immunity (as domain I think), 1 Sending, 1 other spell (splatbook ?)

So no more spell slots for others. Why should he cancel casting spells on himself if he could get nearly invincible.

Oh, the Dispel Magic trick ... didn't work well, the few times a caster dispelled something he did it on the Wizard (more obvious).

Hmm, ok, sneak attack may suck, too. But as long as you flank you get it. Undead, oozes and constructs aside. Only undead appear sometimes (then a turn undead is like a miracle) .

And yes ! You can use fireballs in small closed rooms as long as the cleric and the wizard are alone in there ... Both are immune 24/7 against fire and acid. Protected against Electricity, Sonic and Cold ...

The duell wouln't be fair if the cleric has to forgo some of his class abilities (spells). The fighter can use all of his feats as well ! He wouldn't be the same CR if he didn't use his spells. He didn't use offensive spells, so that is already a relinquishment. If he would use his flame strikes he would boil the fighter in his full plate before he could close up ! Reflex save ... muhahahaaaa .

But whatever, I think it will become much better in 3.5. And we use a total different spell system in another group. No problem there.

BYE

PS: Puh, it's hot in here ! Got to switch of my computer

 

[blackshirt5]

That's actually why I prefer using the Urban Fighter from FFG's Path of the Sword book. Trades in it's first level bonus feat for 4 skill points per level and an expanded skill list.

 

[yennico]

Re: pointless to reply

I don't get your reply? He's comparing how a cleric has all these abilities above a fighter because of his spells. Yes the fighter can get those spells but NOT BY HIMSELF. The cleric doesn't need another cleric to do all this. he does it himself. Yes the fighter would be way more powerful with all the clerics spells on him but that'd mean he needs a spare cleric to do it! It kind of defeats the point of pinning one guy vs the other.

ok you are right. I must clarify my reply.

A cleric is like isoChron said nearly nothing without his spells,
but spells can be dispelled.
The cleric does not have unlimited spell slots. The fighter has unlimited attacks.
Spells have a limited duration: Some spells should be cast only in combat because of their short duration. The duration of the buff spells is reduced in 3.5, so in 3.5 they nearly will be cast in combat situations.
The cleric can be disrupted while casting (failed concentration check) a spell if attacked. (favorite tactic of NPCs: delay action: attack the cleric if the starts casting a spell...)
A cleric can be grappled (if not protected by blade barrier spell), so he can not cast spells without some metamagic feats.
A cleric needs time in the combat to cast a blade barrier (casting time one full round), during which he is vulnerable.
If he does not have this time he can not cast this spell.
Magic Vestment is a good spell, but the fighter also can increase his AC by feats: dodge, expertise, etc...

Magic can be influenced by the enviroment (in the underdark some spells does not function correctly (CotSQ) or at the world can be some areas devoid of magic, where magic does not function )
If the cleric is not on his home plane the connection to his god and to recieve spells can be more difficult. I remember a table in For Duties and Deities (AD&D Adventure)

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[yennico]

Hi isoChron

Hi yennico.

Hm, ok of course can the cleric cast the same spells on the fighter but he doesn't have enough slots for that.
In 2nd level he has 7 spellslots (+domain): 2 bull strength (both for cleric so that they last all day) 2 endurance (both for cleric) 1 endurance (from domain for the wiz) 1 zone of truth, 1 silence, 1 hold person or delay poison.
in 3rd level he has 5 spellslots (+domain): 4 Magic Vestments (all for cleric), 1 daylight and I don't know about the domain spell
in 4th level he has 5 spellslots (+domain): 2 GMW (both for cleric), 1 or 2 restoration, spell immunity (as domain I think), 1 Sending, 1 other spell (splatbook ?)

Then the player of the cleric is an egoistic, munchkin player.
Egoistic, because he cast spells nearly on himself (except endurance)
munchkin: how needs buff spells for the whole day
At level 15 your fighter should have some magic items like amulet of health or belt of giant strength, so there is need for bull´s strength and endurance (because their bonus does not stack).

So no more spell slots for others. Why should he cancel casting spells on himself if he could get nearly invincible.

Perhaps he fears that his beloved companions will not survive the fight
If only he is invincible, the other party members are not invincible and got killed during the fight, he has to face the enemies alone.

Oh, the Dispel Magic trick ... didn't work well, the few times a caster dispelled something he did it on the Wizard (more obvious).

At high level displell magic and greater dispelling are very powerful and feared spells, because they can determine if you have to fight a by spells buffed enemy or a "normal" enemy.

And yes ! You can use fireballs in small closed rooms as long as the cleric and the wizard are alone in there ... Both are immune 24/7 against fire and acid. Protected against Electricity, Sonic and Cold ...

Why are they immune against fire and acid ? Protected by spells ?
For protection from sonic, electricity and cold they need at least (without any magic item) 6 level 4 spells. They can be dispelled.

The duell wouln't be fair if the cleric has to forgo some of his class abilities (spells). The fighter can use all of his feats as well ! He wouldn't be the same CR if he didn't use his spells. He didn't use offensive spells, so that is already a relinquishment. If he would use his flame strikes he would boil the fighter in his full plate before he could close up ! Reflex save ... muhahahaaaa .

I did not say he is prohibited to use his spells. It is not fair to be buffed before the fight started. If he wants to buff himself by spells he had to cast them in the fight. So in the first round he cast one magic vestment.... in the second round the second magic vestment.

Flame strike is a powerful spell but it can only be used if no friend stands near the target.

I agree a high level prepared!! spellcaster is more powerful then a high level fighter.

But each class also has his weaknesses. For the cleric it is his reflex save and his improved fighting and defending abilities depending on magic which can be dispelled.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Sure, the fighter fights better than the other classes, but he or she does so in an unspectacular fashion. The advantage of the fighter is in the bonusses, in the numbers, not in the options. Thus the fighter fights exactly like the other classes - the fighter is just better at it.

The point of my previous post - that fighters should have more spectacular options in melee - is to create something that gives the fighter options to fight in a way that isn't exactly the same as the sorcerer's way (just with a higher damage potential). If there were more spectacular feats like Whirlwind Attack that (unlike Whirlwind Attack) was more flexible and usable it would make the fighter a more unique character - a true master at his craft capable of doing things that few other non-warriors could even attempt. Or perhaps different weapon features that would be "unlocked" as the fighter's BAB increased: "Scythe (BAB +16 Full Attack option: Roundhouse Reaping: The PC can wield the Scythe as if he had the Whirlwind Attack feat)" Whatever... I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[Valiantheart]

I dont even think the fighter is better at it than many of the other classes. A high level barb will smash a high level fighter to goo. Lets not forget how beneficial that rage ability is going to be now that stat boosting items will be more expensive. A DR of 5 is really nice too.

I have two lines of thought on the current fighter. A) What can be done to fix the 3.5 fighter B) What should be done for a potential version 4 fighter.

A) The biggest problem the fighter has faced in 3.0 and (apparently) 3.5 is that he is relegated to being a combat generalist. He has lots of options available to him because of his feats, but by mid to high levels all the other melee classes can do what he does because they have completed their own feat trees plus they have more skills and an oodle of special abilities.

The 3.0/3.5 fighter has further been relegated to a generalist position due to the rise of PrCs in every book that comes out these days. Instead of creating a series of feat trees to allow fighters to customize their fighting styles all have been relegated to PrCs, with the exception of Two Weapons style which seems to be focused on to exclusivity.

These problems could be easily solved by WOTC in a single book if they actually created some high level feats with matching prereqs. Sword and board and Two Weapon fighting feats already exist, but feats need to be created for single weapon style, two handed style etc. Also, many of the special abilities given to PrCs are bascially feats (from just S&F): Supreme Cleave, Canny Defense, improved coup de grace, blades of death, zen archery, ki whirlwind, ki critical, superior combat reflexes.

Another tactic would be to simply add an additional feat to the end of most feat chains that may only be taken by fighters of sufficient level.

B) The appoach I would take on the 4.0 Fighter would be to borrow a little bit fom D20 Modern and 1 other change.

First, D20 Modern has a dodge bonus that accumulates for characters just as BAB does. The dodge bonus progression varies from class to class just as BAB does in D&D. The advanatage of this system is it does allow you to actually create those lightly armored combat classes many of us have seen on TV or in books. In D&D 4.0, I would give the fighting class the best BAB like he has now but also the best Dodge ability. He should be the absolute best in combat. Conversely someone like the Barb, for instance, I would give the best BAB and a medium dodge progression. This bonus enable a player to customize their character as they see fit.

The second change I would make is to improve the fighters attack progression from evey 5 BAB points to evey 4 BAB points. So instead of additional attacks at 6,11,16 levels he would have a bab progression of:

1 +1
2 +2
3 +3
4 +4
5 +5/+1
6 +6/+2
7 +7/+3
8 +8/+4
9 +9/+5/+1
10 +10/+6/+2
11 +11/+7/+3
12 +12/+8/+4
13 +13/+9/+5/+1
14 +14/+10/+6/+2
15 +15/+11/+7/+3
16 +16/+12/+8/+4
17 +17/+13/+9/+5/+1
18 +18/+14/+10/+6/+2
19 +19/+15/+11/+7/+3
20 +20/+16/+12/+8/+4