Stats. Hate them ? Love them ? Think they can be better ? Or an outdated concept ?

Lastoutkast · Jan 30, 2017

Stats seem to be at the center of most rpgs, but do we need them ? Are they important to how a character is " seen " or is it something we keep carrying on from other roleplaying systems because that is what we have always done. Can they be better ? I'm not looking at any one system to change but wondering what your feelings on stats are.

thanks all !!!

Dannyalcatraz · Jan 30, 2017

I like stats. Not sure I've seen someone suggest a replacement I thought was better.

The Crimson Binome · Jan 30, 2017

Stats are important, because they help to define what a character can and cannot do. It would be boring if everyone could do everything, and it would be hard to improvise fairly if you were making things up on the spot. Having your capabilities defined beforehand gives you interesting constraints to work within.

Lastoutkast · Jan 30, 2017

Saelorn said:
Stats are important, because they help to define what a character can and cannot do. It would be boring if everyone could do everything, and it would be hard to improvise fairly if you were making things up on the spot. Having your capabilities defined beforehand gives you interesting constraints to work within.

Do you think we could do better than standard 6 stat setup ? If so what would add or take away ? For example a friend of mine hates how wisdom and intelligence are not just one stat.

Dannyalcatraz · Jan 30, 2017

One can be wise without being intelligent, and intelligent but unwise. So I think that's perfectly fine.

But it isn't the only possible breakdown. Personally, my favorite system is HERO, and it not only has more stats- per your followup questions- it divides them a little differently than does D&D.

Jhaelen · Jan 30, 2017

I think stats are quite useful, but some RPGs can do without.
E.g. I recall that the 'Over the Edge' only uses descriptive traits, which is perfectly fine and fitting for the kind of open, everything-goes setting it represents.
I think there's also RPGs that only use talents and skills. But even in such systems stats might have been useful as a fallback if you can't find a fitting skill.

Jhaelen · Jan 30, 2017

Lastoutkast said:
For example a friend of mine hates how wisdom and intelligence are not just one stat.

I'm not particularly happy about the D&D stats either, but it's mostly a problem of naming them properly. E.g. simply calling Wisdom 'Perception' or 'Senses' or something like that would make more sense. And Intelligence is really closer to 'Knowledge' or 'Learning'.

I also don't like that Charisma is the catch-all stat for social skills. I'd prefer if there were two stats representing social prowess, e.g. 'Empathy' and 'Communication' or 'Presence'. This would also serve to underline and enforce the importance of social encounters, which are too often handwaved in D&D, especially with Charisma as the favorite dump stat.

To avoid introducing a seventh stat, I'd merge Strength and Constitution into a single stat ('Power' or 'Fortitude?'). Then you'd have a nice setup with three pairs of stats representing body, mind, and ... spirit? (not sure what to call the third one...)

Actually, I have once created the basics of an RPG system with a similar setup: It used body, mind, and spirit, each with an active and a passive expression as base stats.

The Crimson Binome · Jan 30, 2017

Lastoutkast said:
Do you think we could do better than standard 6 stat setup ? If so what would add or take away ? For example a friend of mine hates how wisdom and intelligence are not just one stat.

I'm not a fan of Wisdom and Intelligence as different stats, either. Even though I've definitely met a lot of people with high Intelligence and low Wisdom - I think the hobby attracts them, actually - it's hard to break them down in an objective way such that everyone can always agree which task should be governed by which stat. If you have two different stats, but you can't agree which does which, then you're in a worse position than if you just have one stat which covers both.

My personal preference would be something like: Strength, Agility, Mind, Perception, Willpower.

Strength would cover both Strength and Constitution, to solve the current issue where everyone needs Con to an equal degree. Agility replaces Dexterity for the purposes of defense and skills. Mind would cover both Intelligence and the common sense aspect of Wisdom. Perception would get survival skills, but also be used for ranged attacks and initiative. Willpower would cover most of Charisma, plus the willpower aspect of Wisdom.

Taking that one step further, I would also require that all melee attacks use Strength and all spell save DCs be based on Mind, to further guarantee that everyone always knows which stat is required for which task, but that might be too radical for today's audience.

Lylandra · Jan 30, 2017

I like stats, because it makes sense to define your character's strengths and weaknesses in numerical values. But those stats don't have to be the standerd D&D ones.

While I don't have too much problems with the physical stat descriptions (as long as you can apply them flexibly to skills - thanks 5e!), the mental stats and their corresponding saves give me headaches. Intelligence is the least debateable one, but distinguishing Wisdom and Charisma is pretty hard. Wisdom to me is common sense and to some extend awareness. Not willpower -> usual will saves. Charisma is your ability to influence others. And "Willpower" should be another stat altogether - mental resilience, akin to constitution.

One could also argue for a "beauty" physical stat, but most won't want to open that can of worms

ccs · Jan 30, 2017

Do we need stats in our RPGs? Yes.
Unless you can tell me how we'd judge things concerning g who/what's faster, stronger, smarter, etc. Since virtually any answer you give will result in some sort of ranking system....

Is the D&D version the best? Maybe/maybe not. I guess it depends on the game you intend to run. Especially since the Stat system is an integral part of whatever game you've picked. If you (radically) change the Stat system your signing up for a helluva lot of (pointless) work.

Do I like the D&D stat system? Yes, yes I do.
Sure, there's some abstraction. I can live with that.
If I wanted a more complex system? Then I wouldn't be playing D&D.