Stats. Hate them ? Love them ? Think they can be better ? Or an outdated concept ?

[Jhaelen]

My favorite differentiation between the two is as follows:

Intelligence is knowing that the tomato is a fruit.

Wisdom is not putting any tomatoes in your fruit salad.​

Johnathan

... and that's a perfect example why Intelligence is really a misnomer:
It doesn't take any intelligence to know that a tomato is a fruit. It's just something you need to be told (well, and believe, I guess), and then remember it. It's Knowledge[\b] or maybe Learning.

Now, a person to actually realize that a tomato is a fruit, by comparing it with other fruits and vegetables, and examining its characteristics; that might actually be an application of intelligence.
But the real question for me is: Is Intelligence a useful stat for a (Fantasy) RPG? Imho, it isn't, unless research is a common and important activity in the game.

 

[Blue]

Stats are important as long as you want a concrete mechanical resolution to in-game problems. If you're not overly concerned with if the player actually can hit an AC of 0, then the only thing that matters is if the description of the attack is worthy of success.

You know, this isn't even true in D&D. Much less other game systems that have other definitive methods of determining success but don't use stats.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With respect, Jhaelen, all you've described is a differing methodology for gaining knowledge. Whether one uses the scientific method or one is merely told, sorting information into factual and false is what the intelligent mind does.

Put differently: someone had to discern that a tomato is a fruit and not a veggie, and used some kind of process as you described. But using that process isn't a prerequisite for "intelligence", especially since we have language and ways of recording & sharing data. No mathematician independently did all of the proofs- starting with the one for 1 + 1 = 2- that formed the basis of the pinnacle of their abilities.

 

[GrahamWills]

Do we need stats in our RPGs? Yes.
Unless you can tell me how we'd judge things concerning g who/what's faster, stronger, smarter, etc. Since virtually any answer you give will result in some sort of ranking system....

So this is an important point. How, in real life, can you tell who is stronger? Its actually not that easy. There is no "Strength" you can measure. Instead we look at skills, and extrapolate from that. So a web search for "world's strongest man" and you'll see it's all in terms of skills -- "most cars pulled", "highest weight lifted", etc.

So a reasonable answer to how to get rid of stats is simply ... just use skills. Imagine your favorite D&D character with all the derived skills and abilities the same, and no stats. Would it play any differently? No -- the use of pure ability checks is so rare it can easily be ignored in D&D; it's all skills and abilities.

To a large extent, having both skills and stats is overkill. You can have systems like FATE with only skills, or 13th Age, with only stats, and then have a few special cases / stunts / aspects / class features for more customization and you're golden. I've no issues with the way D&D and GURPS does it -- it works fine -- but I don't think it's necessary to design a system using it.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So a reasonable answer to how to get rid of stats is simply ... just use skills. Imagine your favorite D&D character with all the derived skills and abilities the same, and no stats. Would it play any differently? No -- the use of pure ability checks is so rare it can easily be ignored in D&D; it's all skills and abilities.

I've considered this before, but the question is where those skill and ability numbers come from. If we don't have something like Strength and Dexterity (which all characters possess), then how do we determine baseline competency with Athletics or Stealth (which all characters should be able to attempt)? Is everyone just at +0, unless it's a skill that they actually have? And how good are they at dodging fireballs?

Base stats are important to D&D to make sure everything is connected and makes sense. If you determined everything independently of everything else - if skills, attack bonuses, and saves were not derived from Strength, Dexterity, et cetera - then you'd be much more likely to end up with same-y characters that are hard to visualize. You would very likely end up with someone who wears heavy armor and swings a huge maul while acrobatically dodging fireballs, but doesn't have the strength to kick down a door or climb a tree. And everyone else in the party is also good at dodging fireballs, because there's nothing stopping them, regardless of how strong or frail they are described as being.

 

[Sunseeker]

You know, this isn't even true in D&D. Much less other game systems that have other definitive methods of determining success but don't use stats.

I've never seen a game both not use stats AND have a mathematical resolution system.

 

[Blue]

I've never seen a game both not use stats AND have a mathematical resolution system.

FATE off the top of my head.

 

[Arilyn]

Stats are a very useful tool in rpg design, but not necessary. There are well designed games without stats, such as FATE, and Over the Edge. It really depends on the nature of the game and the goals of the designer. I don't think the idea will ever become outdated, but as the years have gone by since rpgs were first being developed, many designers have tried differing approaches. It's what makes the field exciting right now. There are a lot of very good games on the market, with many differing and cool ways to play.

For me, the important thing is whether the game achieves what is sets out to do. Does it fit the narrative? Is it elegant? I enjoy well designed games with stats and well designed games without them.

 

[Sunseeker]

FATE off the top of my head.

Pardon my unfamiliarity with FATE, but it looks like they simply use Skills in place of Stats.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I like stats but they're not necessary. You can also make a more or less exhaustive list of things you want to do in the game and give each one a numerical value, e.g. fight - 7, schmooze - 3, drive - 8, etc. The exact list will depend greatly on the genre of the game.

For the games that do have state, I prefer them to be directly usable. D&D gets a by on this for reasons of tradition, but if I were to apply it here, I would still roll 3d6 to get a number and find the ability modifier to get a nice bell curve distribution, but then I'd write the modifier on the character sheet and not the original number, so stats would range from -4 to +4.