D&D 5E How does the Phantasmal Force spell work correctly?

CapnZapp · Feb 7, 2017

The corollary is - it's 2nd level, so it shouldn't be that powerful.

ThePolarBear · Feb 8, 2017

lkwpeter said:
Hey,

1.)
I read a lot about "casting a black container around a creature's head" so that the creature is blinded. Or "casting some loud noises to it's ears, so it is deafend". But is that really possible?

Yes and No. I mean, the bucket is fine, but the loud noises, as presented, no. It has to be something visible. You can make a gigantic (well...10 foot) ringing bell however.

lkwpeter said:
2.)
Also I would like to know, how creatures act that I cast. For example if I want to make a hostile creature beliefe that his boss is talking to him and wants it to leave his guard post. Can I interact with the illusion or change things after I cast it?

Not without other abilities/powers

lkwpeter said:
3.)
What other restrictions are there? And what is the best use of it?

Apart from the visible part, you also have to remember that you have to know what you are going to make the target believe is happening. As the example above if you do not know the "boss" in question, there's nothing you can do about it.
And no, won't spoil my secrets

lkwpeter said:
4.) Could I cast an illusion of a city guard lieutenant that asks his subordinate to follow him somewhere?

If you know the person you are trying to replicate, you'll end up with a very repetitive static lieutenant. Unless you add some spice to it (like "running towards the end of the street shouting "there's a riot! All men! To me!") i would have the target stand there rationalixing as of why the lieutenant does not move.

lkwpeter said:
5.) Am I right, that in contrast to other illusion spells the hostile creature does NOT recognize it as an illusion, after it interacted with it physically? That is only possible via an intelligence check, right?

It's not automatic as the target percieves the illusion as real with all senses. However in said above stationary lieutenant might trigger the investigation check since an action the target might take is "i try to check if my officer is feeling well or has a fever", making it count as "investigating" the illusion.
On the running riot example the check would likely happen when the target reaches the end of the street and the officer disappears or if the soldier asks for further informations on the riot.

lkwpeter said:
6.) What spell do you think is more useful/powerful? Phantasmal Force or Suggestion?

Different uses. Both powerful.

lkwpeter said:
Last question: I found the following statement from a player concerning the question whether or not it would be possible to grab a creature with illusionary lava chains that knock it prone and hold it afterwards. Would you agree?

Possibly. Again, spice it up with me and you are good to go. "Lava" chains is not really cutting it tho... Red hot ones might work better.

Bacon Bits said:
Or, you could have the target think the floor dropped out from under him for 10 feet, and then have acid or burning alcohol pour into the small prison from the top. The target would try to scramble up the walls, but since they aren't actually there he would fall over. He'd interpret that as the acid or burning alcohol covered walls being too difficult to climb.

I've always played that unless this kind of illusions can make something appear, but not something else disappear. This case would both fall into something that's not "visible" (it's below ground) and even then it would be rationalized as "oh i'm lucky the trap did not spring!" for me.

Undrhil · Feb 8, 2017

How would the "Illusory Reality" class feature interact with Phantasmal Force? If I make the creature believe it's head is in a bowl which is exactly big enough to not be able to be removed and then use Illusory Reality to make it real, does that remove the ability for the target to even end the effect on themself with the INT check?

lkwpeter · Feb 8, 2017

ThePolarBear said:
[...] you also have to remember that you have to know what you are going to make the target believe is happening. As the example above if you do not know the "boss" in question, there's nothing you can do about it.
And no, won't spoil my secrets

If you know the person you are trying to replicate, you'll end up with a very repetitive static lieutenant. Unless you add some spice to it (like "running towards the end of the street shouting "there's a riot! All men! To me!") i would have the target stand there rationalixing as of why the lieutenant does not move.

Thanks for your answer! But I think you rule it a bit too hard. I find the answer from I'm a Banana quite reasonable:

I'm A Banana said:
Flavor-wise, phantasms are creations of the target's mind, not images created in space. So the illusionist can use this to her advantage - the target's mind will fill in gaps and make assumptions that are in line with the created effect being real. It's not like the illusionist is making the illusion say something, it's like the illusionist is saying, "get this concept across" and the target's mind shows the target what the concept would look like from the target's perspective. So, it relies on the target's sense of what's possible, not the illusionist's. That's part of why they're just single-target.

This is contrasted with the "image" spells which are essentially creations of light and magical force that everyone can see/hear/smell/etc. (as the spell entails). Those don't exist in the target's mind, they exist in space, and are just deceptive images.

A phantasm is closer to a charm - it changes your perception of what is real.

Considering that this the spell is restricted to only one target + it includes a saving throw I think this is a good balance.

Bacon Bits · Feb 8, 2017

ThePolarBear said:
I've always played that unless this kind of illusions can make something appear, but not something else disappear. This case would both fall into something that's not "visible" (it's below ground) and even then it would be rationalized as "oh i'm lucky the trap did not spring!" for me.

I'm not saying the floor disappears. I'm saying it appears that a 5x5 foot section of floor below the target swiftly lowers 10 feet, like a fast elevator. It's not significantly different than making walls rise up around a creature.

ThePolarBear · Feb 8, 2017

Bacon Bits said:
I'm not saying the floor disappears. I'm saying it appears that a 5x5 foot section of floor below the target swiftly lowers 10 feet, like a fast elevator. It's not significantly different than making walls rise up around a creature.

Yeah, to make that happen the actual floor has to disappear. You could not see "the floor going down" because the actual floor would still be there. You can create illusionary chains that are hanged to illusionary rings stuck into an illusionary protrusion of a real wall. You could not create illusionary chains that enter an illusionary hole in a real wall. You could "paint" the image of an hole, but it would be just that - the illusion of an image. Obviously, my opinion - and not all the spells have to adhere to this ruling, since not all illusions are created equal.

Bacon Bits · Feb 8, 2017

ThePolarBear said:
Yeah, to make that happen the actual floor has to disappear. You could not see "the floor going down" because the actual floor would still be there. You can create illusionary chains that are hanged to illusionary rings stuck into an illusionary protrusion of a real wall. You could not create illusionary chains that enter an illusionary hole in a real wall. You could "paint" the image of an hole, but it would be just that - the illusion of an image. Obviously, my opinion - and not all the spells have to adhere to this ruling, since not all illusions are created equal.

Yeah, I flatly disagree. The spell manipulates your perceptions with illusory sensations and false peception.

If you've been drunk or had a hypnic jerk, you've had your perceptions messed up well enough to feel like you're falling or like the world is unstable. Hallucinogens like LSD can cause even more extreme false perceptions. Optical illusions trick you into perceiving depth all the time. Strictly speaking, making an object look like there's something coming out of it and making something look like it has a hole in it are identical tasks as far as manipulating the eyes are concerned. The distinction you're drawing is completely arbitrary here.

lkwpeter · Feb 8, 2017

ThePolarBear said:
Yeah, to make that happen the actual floor has to disappear. You could not see "the floor going down" because the actual floor would still be there. You can create illusionary chains that are hanged to illusionary rings stuck into an illusionary protrusion of a real wall. You could not create illusionary chains that enter an illusionary hole in a real wall. You could "paint" the image of an hole, but it would be just that - the illusion of an image. Obviously, my opinion - and not all the spells have to adhere to this ruling, since not all illusions are created equal.

I agree that this doesn't work for spells like Minor Illusion and Silent Image, because these spells are just manipulating the reality with light effects, etc.

But Phantasmal Force is different to that. It takes place in the creatures mind, so almost everything is possible. I find that Bacon Bits' examples are quite reasonable.

Saeviomagy · Feb 8, 2017

My view is that you CAN chain someone, however if they take an action to break out of the chains, their strength check would automatically succeed. If they're determined to strain against the illusion, it cannot hold them, so their mind will rationalize that as the chains breaking.

Similarly if you try to lock someone in a metal box and they throw themselves against the wall intending to knock it down: the wall won't stop them, so they'll rationalize it breaking or a door opening or some such thing.

Note, however if they were to (say) attempt to pick the lock on the chains or to pound their fist on the wall to make noise, the illusion will seem real and they will not escape.

I might even allow illusions to speak to their victims in languages the caster doesn't know: however it's going to be a flawed method if you want to use it to communicate, because the end result will be "Given the illusionary appearance I chose, interpreted by the target, how would that appearance try to communicate the idea that I'm thinking of?".

Also you don't get to see the results of your action: only the target perceives the illusion.

For example if you're trying to speak to an orc, and your illusion is "an orc" and the words you are trying to get across are "let's not fight these guys", you might end up with the target perceiving a compatriot he views as weak being cowardly and be pretty confused when the end result is that the orc charges you, determined to prove his bravery. Of course if you do manage to start a dialogue, you're going to need to use comprehend languages to interpret any response.

So: situationally useful, but not as good as tongues.

ThePolarBear · Feb 9, 2017

Bacon Bits said:
Yeah, I flatly disagree. The spell manipulates your perceptions with illusory sensations and false peception.

If you've been drunk or had a hypnic jerk, you've had your perceptions messed up well enough to feel like you're falling or like the world is unstable. Hallucinogens like LSD can cause even more extreme false perceptions. Optical illusions trick you into perceiving depth all the time. Strictly speaking, making an object look like there's something coming out of it and making something look like it has a hole in it are identical tasks as far as manipulating the eyes are concerned. The distinction you're drawing is completely arbitrary here.

lkwpeter said:
I agree that this doesn't work for spells like Minor Illusion and Silent Image, because these spells are just manipulating the reality with light effects, etc.

But Phantasmal Force is different to that. It takes place in the creatures mind, so almost everything is possible. I find that Bacon Bits' examples are quite reasonable.

You need to CREATE an object, not remove one. You are creating the illusion of an image. That is fine. The creature would go "oh wow what a nice image, it seems like there's a pit here". You do not automatically trip it with peyote, nor make it believe that the image of the image is something different than an image. You can create a PIT, and not just the IMAGE of a pit, it just has to stand in a place where there's nothing else to interact with that would make the illusion unworkable. It does matter where the illusion takes place, if there's no space for the illusion to be, then it's not possible for the creature to be affected since the illusion is not visible.

You create the illusion of a bear? There's a bear, for that person.
You create the illusion of a sword? There's a sword, for that person.
You create the illusion of a pit under the feets of the person? The floor is still there. You cannot delete the floor.
You create the illusion of the image of a pit? There's an image of a pit, for that person.

A cage? Fine. A cage with sharp knifes on the top? Ok. A cage with snakes? No, objects and creatures. That half that wall is invisible? Nope, can't delete reality. Spectral chains coming from a space rift? It's cool, go ahead for me. A house on fire? very small one, but yes. Fire on that house? Yep. Fire on that house that's also now half destroyed? Nope. A door in the wall? Good. A doorway? No. The image of a doorway? Yes, with all the limitations of such an illusion.

This spell does not let a person go Wile-e-Coyote and Roadrunner. It lets you create an illusionary object, creature or visible effect in the mind of a target, and that's it. If you want, you could make its sight go trippy.But it doesn't make a person intake LSD. Unless you create the illusion of LSD and the person really wants to try it.
[MENTION=77538]Undrhil[/MENTION]l I think you can actually make it real, and once its real it's real. But do not quote me on the "you can" part.
Now i want to play an illusionist that Phantasmal Forces himself to see LSD and makes it real...