D&D 4E A gathering of Martial Controllers - what do you think

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Honestly why didnt they think to make this the Norm for martial powers... Intentional nerfing of polearm heroics?
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Whirlwind Stance
You spin and thrust your weapon with increadible speed, striking every enemy you can reach.
At-Will * Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be using a pole-arm or other weapon with reach
Effect: When you use a Close burst 1 or Close blast 1 Martial Attack power, use the reach of your weapon to determine the size of the burst or blast.
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Remember, 4e was following 3.5's act, where the gattling- chain-tipper build was the premier fighter. And was instituting roles. 3.5 reach as battlefield control was, well control, and it kept enemies away from you, the opposite of defending, so reach got the nerf bat.

Beyond that, controller was the excuse for keeping the wizard best pony, and Martial the second-class Source, even if it was by a margin orders of magnitude narrower than ever before...

...or, in case the obvious need be stated, since.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Remember, 4e was following 3.5's act, where the gattling- chain-tipper build was the premier fighter. And was instituting roles. 3.5 reach as battlefield control was, well control, and it kept enemies away from you, the opposite of defending, so reach got the nerf bat.

OK so it really is a role oriented modification, I accept that.

Plus well Heroes arent that often polearm users in fantasy...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I wrote up the spinning strike without the assumption that it would be role modified in that way... in part because I wasnt giving the Warlord that ability [MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION]Vagas
 



OK so it really is a role oriented modification, I accept that.

Plus well Heroes arent that often polearm users in fantasy...

Well, our fantasy is mostly drawn from societies where swords were the weapons of the elite. They were not that way because they were the ultimate battlefield weapon, but because they were the most practical and utilitarian side-arm and weapon of self-defense. In a world where, at its core, all authority stemmed from nothing more than the ability to apply superior force at any moment, the carrying of weapons was a highly culturally important thing, which had to be very rigidly controlled by the elite, lest they become pig-stuck by the slightly less elite eager to replace them!

Notice that this pattern goes ALL the way back in recorded history, Gilgamesh's title is 'Lugal of Ur', which literally translates as "Biggest Fist of Ur", the guy that hits harder than anyone else, so he gets to be boss! He'd have carried a sword too, and they'd have been restricted to his class of people, had swords been invented and feasible weapons at that time.

So, most heroes are 'upper class' and thus carry swords! In reality a glaive or a halbard was likely to be a more effective weapon in a serious fight, but something like an arming sword (arguable what 4e's 'longsword' is, though they've heavily mangled the terminology) IS nice in that you can practically wield it even in most tighter spaces and carry it indoors, etc. Its a bit harder to do that with a polearm.

Anyway, Polearms aren't really all that neglected in 4e. Halbards count as axes and glaives count as heavy blades, so they have access to a variety of feats (not to mention polearm feats themselves, which are generally not shabby). The main issues with polearm builds is they take a while to gel due to needing a couple feats, and don't REALLY reach their peak until paragon due to certain feats being paragon, at which point, as [MENTION=6794638]MA[/MENTION]oW has pointed out, being able to threaten beyond 1 square has largely lost its mechanical utility.

I think another problem is that swords, axes, etc all got enhanced versions in AV1, but polearms never got that treatment. They were all d10 weapons, so they weren't drastically far behind, but there never was a d12 polearm (I guess maybe there is in DS or something, I'm not sure, we never used DS stuff). Frankly I think the AV1 weapons were a bad idea anyway and should be dropped from the game. They don't add that much and just represent another feat you need to get. That alone would bring things like the halbard back to being a top-ranked Axe, and with reach its basically a very good axe!
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, our fantasy is mostly drawn from societies where swords were the weapons of the elite. They were not that way because they were the ultimate battlefield weapon, but because they were the most practical and utilitarian side-arm and weapon of self-defense. In a world where, at its core, all authority stemmed from nothing more than the ability to apply superior force at any moment, the carrying of weapons was a highly culturally important thing, which had to be very rigidly controlled by the elite, lest they become pig-stuck by the slightly less elite eager to replace them!
Yes one does have to further back to some earlier eras to find the serious use of spears and javelins or even slings... by the greatest heros. Lancelot and his "lance" was likely just a hold over from earlier era and he is socially dominated by a king with a sword
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Notice that this pattern goes ALL the way back in recorded history, Gilgamesh's title is 'Lugal of Ur', which literally translates as "Biggest Fist of Ur",

I have read there are some linguistic oddities of many of the heroics who's names meant of the hand or arm or fist even though from cultures where it was unusual for body parts being named ... it may be a reference to a weapon. Lamfada being long arm ... effectively being the name lancelot in an earlier form. Lewc LlweanLliach.... is the Welsh name of Lancelot ie its Luke or Lugh and the original companion for Arthur was sometimes referred to as the irishman. OK I am meandering but you brought up another Lug(al).
 

Yes one does have to further back to some earlier eras to find the serious use of spears and javelins or even slings... by the greatest heros. Lancelot and his "lance" was likely just a hold over from earlier era and he is socially dominated by a king with a sword

Well, spears were always honorable weapons. In the Illiad they're the chosen weapon of most of the heroes, but they ARE on a battlefield most of the time, and swords were not really perfected in 1200BC (or so). Knights were of course necessarily upper class people as well, so the carrying of a lance automatically would have indicated high status to the people reading those stories, even if it wasn't the quintessential elite weapon.

I have read there are some linguistic oddities of many of the heroics who's names meant of the hand or arm or fist even though from cultures where it was unusual for body parts being named ... it may be a reference to a weapon. Lamfada being long arm ... effectively being the name lancelot in an earlier form. Lewc LlweanLliach.... is the Welsh name of Lancelot ie its Luke or Lugh and the original companion for Arthur was sometimes referred to as the irishman. OK I am meandering but you brought up another Lug(al).

Yeah, well, that whole "Big Fist of Ur" thing may be apocryphal anyway, its not like I can decipher ancient Sumerian clay tables myself, that's for sure! Someplace I have a copy of Gilgamesh with the usual prefaces and whatnot, which is probably where I got that from. I should dig it out and see what it actually says. Probably been 20 or 30 years since I actually read it.
 

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