Judgement calls vs "railroading"

pemerton

Legend
So the setting of the DC was influenced by realistic expectations and/or concerns around verisimilitude? Well then I have to ask why didn't you just say yes there's some kind of container in this room you could collect blood in as opposed to making them roll?
I wouldn't have even required a roll. A chamber like that would have a chamber pot, and less likely, an inkwell or decanter for water/alcohol.
There are two ways to look at this.

From the ingame causation point of view: even if the vessel is there, the PC may not notice it in the hubbub of the situation (decapitated mage, assassin trying to flee, two wizards trying to stop said assassin fleeing and one of those two also trying to stop the other from killing the assassin).

But that just establishes the possibility of a vessel not being noticed.

The more important perspective, for me, is the real-world, pacing-the-game-at-the-table perspective. I GM along the lines of "say 'yes' or roll the dice". Here is how Luke Crane describes the idea (BW Gold, p 72):

Unless there is something at stake in the story you have created, don’t bother with the dice. Keep moving, keep describing, keep roleplaying. But as soon as a character wants something that he doesn’t have, needs to know something he doesn’t know, covets something that someone else has, roll the dice.​

In the episode of play I described, the character wanted a vessel to catch the blood so he could take it back to his dark naga master. Something was at stake in the story we have created; the character wanted something (a vessel) that he didn't have (his equipment list was clothes, shoes and a stick carved into a staff); and so the dice had to be rolled.

If you've been playing the campaign for years of game time, and the party just finishes their long quest to slay a dragon which was terrorizing the countryside, and then as soon as they get a chance to rest, on their way home, there is suddenly a meteorite crash near wherever-they-happen-to-be? You're going to get some eye-rolling and train noises.
I'm not 100% sure who the "you" refers to - someone GMing for you and your friends? Or any GM in general?

I look at it this way: if the group isn't dissolving, then more adventures are going to be played. If that particular campaign isn't done, then some of those adventures are going to involve these PCs. That means that something is going to happen that frames those PCs into their next adventure.

Such framing can be done more or less deftly, but it has to be done. A meteoroid falling through the sky doesn't seem particularly worse than any other way of doing it.

with every campaign that isn't strictly sandbox, there's at least an implicit agreement to be somewhat amenable to the overall thrust of the campaign, whether the GM actively pushes or pulls the PCs in a particularly direction or just sets the NPC plotting in motion (to be interacted or interfered with at PC choice).
Where does "the overall thrust of the campaign" come from?

If it comes from the players, then the implicit (or explicit) agreement runs in exactly the opposite direction from what you seem to be suggesting: the GM agrees to frame the PCs into situations that engage the thrust that the players have established. (This is what [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] mentioned in the final paragraph of his post upthread.)

So it is not the case that in every campaign the GM either "pushes or pulls the PCs in a particular direction" or "sets the NPC plotting in motion". In my games, the main way that I work out NPC plotting is either (i) in response to the resolution of player action declarations for their PCs, or (ii) in the context of framing the PCs into some sort of conflict. In the latter case, it's not sitting there in the background as something the players might (via their PCs) take a peek at should they be so inclinde. It's a core part of the action.

I still think Paul Czege articulates this best:

I frame the [player] character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this.​

(Why was there a dark naga in the campaign at all? Because one of the players wrote it into a PC's backstory. Why did this particular PC end up ensnared by the dark naga? Because the player chose to create a snake-handling healer who is obsessed by all things snake-y, who therefore went into the cave partly in hope of meeting the naga. Etc)
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I look at it this way: if the group isn't dissolving, then more adventures are going to be played. If that particular campaign isn't done, then some of those adventures are going to involve these PCs. That means that something is going to happen that frames those PCs into their next adventure.

Such framing can be done more or less deftly, but it has to be done. A meteoroid falling through the sky doesn't seem particularly worse than any other way of doing it.
I think the difference between you and [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] on this point is just one of 'deftness' and could be resolved with an insertion of downtime. That is:

"As soon as you finish your quest, a meteorite crashes into a nearby mountain!" "Choo Choo!" "Ow! my eyes! I rolled them too hard!" "I'll get the Visine.."

vs

"Three years after you completed your quest, a meteorite crashes into a nearby mountain..." "Oh wow, I should drop a Sending to my old questing buddies and check it out." "I'm in." "Ooh, meteorite iron, I can make some magic armor...."
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Railroading isn't inherently good or bad. It's an acquired taste, which has strong vocal detractors, but there are still plenty of people who see nothing wrong with it. Around where I am, we don't look too favorably upon railroading, but there are entire games built around the concepts of scene-framing and yes-and improvisation. Pre-published adventures and convention games are traditionally heavy on railroading (which is one of the major criticisms against them).
Well, convention games kinda have to do this - you only have a certain amount of time to get through the adventure, after all.

I know of two ways around that: 1) In a setting like Forgotten Realms, there are a million adventures happening everywhere, all the time, so there's going to be something interesting no matter where you look; 2) In a setting like Golarion, there is an organized society of quest-givers which is readily available to direct adventurers where they are needed. In either case, it doesn't take a contrived coincidence for the party to find an adventure.
And in a setting like neither of the above...a homebrew that pretty much exists only so I can run my game in it...almost anything that happens is either going to be a contrived coincidence now or be the result of a contrived coincidence sometime during its back history.

If you start a new campaign by saying that a meteorite crashed into a nearby mountain, and the PCs happen to be in the area at the time, then I don't think anyone is going to question that premise.
They'll question it quick enough when it leads to an adventure designed for 6th-8th level characters and they're all raw 1st.
If you've been playing the campaign for years of game time, and the party just finishes their long quest to slay a dragon which was terrorizing the countryside, and then as soon as they get a chance to rest, on their way home, there is suddenly a meteorite crash near wherever-they-happen-to-be? You're going to get some eye-rolling and train noises.
Maybe. Or maybe they'll choose to ignore it and keep going back to town to spend that dragon hoard they just scooped. Their choice. And if they ignore the meteorite then doubtless some other adventuring group will go out and see to it; meanwhile I'll either bait some different hooks or just wait and see what they do next, dependent on the feedback I get.

But I'm not (usually) going to bait an adventure hook that leads to something they just can't handle...or, conversely, that leads to something so trivially easy they might as well not have bothered. Thus, when they get somewhere close to a level that makes sense for that adventure down comes the meteorite.

That said, if they decide to ignore the baited hooks and go off in their own direction (which is fine) then down come the safety nets; they very easily could blunder into something they can't handle, or something they could have done 6 levels ago, or not find anything to do at all.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
More or less, (a) the machinery of play is transparent and fully on display and (b) play has overt structure and integrated micro-principles. Through this, play outcomes emerge.

Both (a) and (b) serve to constrain the GM (typically by removing the option of applying Force/Illusionism...while, if systematized well, removing the need for it).

The inverse of that is (c) the machinery of play is obscured or opaque and (d) play has GM discretion and a broad agenda in the stead of tight, overt structure and integrated micro-principles. Through this, play outcomes emerge.

Both (c) and (d) serve to embolden/empower the GM (in various ways, one of which is by enabling the option of applying the techniques of Force/Illusionism).

An example of (a) and (b) would be Dungeon World [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] mentioned above:

* The GM asks leading questions of the players to find out who the PCs are and to agree upon what is going on as the game opens.

* Everyone, GM included, plays to find out what happens (so prep is to be light - no metaplot).

* The GM must follow the rules.

* Players roll all the dice.

* The participants have a structured conversation. Through that conversation, the game's principles/agenda, and the resolution mechanics, dangerous stuff is introduced into the fiction to fill the PCs' lives with adventure and challenge their thematic portfolio.

* The resolution mechanics are overt and consistent. A thing happens, a thing doesn't happen, or we consult the dice to find out what happens. Roll 2d6 + modifier. 10+; you get what you want. 7-9; you get what you want with a worse outcome, a cost, or an associated hard choice (a GM soft move). 6 or less; the GM escalates things considerably or introduces a new obstacle (a GM hard move), but you mark 1 XP.

* Through this mesh, play snowballs.

* After a session, we reflect on/take inventory of what happened together. Then we do it again.
OK, I think I get it now - thanks!

Put me in the c) and d) camp:

- my games always have at least one and usually several metaplots going on, either behind the scenes or as the scene
- I roll the dice where the outcome has multi-uncertainties (e.g. find traps - I roll because the character has no way of knowing whether a "nothing found" result comes from a successful check determining there really is nothing or a failed check where a trap is in fact present).

The example you give sounds more like a co-operative story-telling type of game than what I think of as a traditional D&D-style game...which is what I play and run.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I guess if there are a million meteorites crashing every day, then it's not actually a coincidence when you happen to see one. I don't play in the Forgotten Realms, specifically for because there's too much going on, so I can't say how that philosophy applies to this situation.
The coincidence in this case is that the meteorite seen by the party is in fact a spaceship (thus, off we go to EotBP) regardless of whether it's the only meteorite this year or but one of millions.

Then again, a crashing meteorite wouldn't be much use as bait for the adventure hook if it happens ten times a night. :)

Lanefan
 

But I'm not (usually) going to bait an adventure hook that leads to something they just can't handle...or, conversely, that leads to something so trivially easy they might as well not have bothered. Thus, when they get somewhere close to a level that makes sense for that adventure down comes the meteorite.
Going back to the topic of the thread, any time that you bait an adventure hook, that's a form of railroading - you're making something happen, because you want it to happen, rather than because it is your honest and unbiased judgment that the thing would happen that way. Whenever the DM decides that anything happens (or doesn't happen) within the game world, it is always either because that's their judgment call on what makes sense to happen, or they have an ulterior motive where they want something to happen. In this case, it happens because you want to provide your players with a level-appropriate adventure.

What I'm getting from this thread is that a lot of people in here seem to be okay with certain forms of railroading, but they don't necessarily want to use that label because it has negative connotations.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Going back to the topic of the thread, any time that you bait an adventure hook, that's a form of railroading - you're making something happen, because you want it to happen, rather than because it is your honest and unbiased judgment that the thing would happen that way. Whenever the DM decides that anything happens (or doesn't happen) within the game world, it is always either because that's their judgment call on what makes sense to happen, or they have an ulterior motive where they want something to happen. In this case, it happens because you want to provide your players with a level-appropriate adventure.
Seems like your definition of railroad falls squarely under most other peoples' definition of normal game play.

So let me ask this: in Saelorn's ideal game, how much power (if any) does the DM have in determining what happens in her game world during the run of play (as opposed to before play actually begins)?

Is she within her rights to steer the party towards published module X because it's all she has available and she doesn't have time to dream up something else, without telling the players?

Is she within her rights to get an idea (be it a scenario, an encounter, an adventure, whatever) from somewhere, think "hey, this could be cool!", and try to somehow work it in to her game?

What I'm getting from this thread is that a lot of people in here seem to be okay with certain forms of railroading, but they don't necessarily want to use that label because it has negative connotations.
Where what I'm getting is that some people hear trains every time a DM speaks, regardless of what she says.

Lanefan
 

Reynard

Legend
If you start a new campaign by saying that a meteorite crashed into a nearby mountain, and the PCs happen to be in the area at the time, then I don't think anyone is going to question that premise. If you've been playing the campaign for years of game time, and the party just finishes their long quest to slay a dragon which was terrorizing the countryside, and then as soon as they get a chance to rest, on their way home, there is suddenly a meteorite crash near wherever-they-happen-to-be? You're going to get some eye-rolling and train noises.

I'm not saying that you can't do it, or even that you shouldn't do it, but it's definitely a form of railroading and some people may be put off by that.

yeah. That damn DM decided to make it so we had an adventure to go on next week. Sunuvabich.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
There are two ways to look at this.

From the ingame causation point of view: even if the vessel is there, the PC may not notice it in the hubbub of the situation (decapitated mage, assassin trying to flee, two wizards trying to stop said assassin fleeing and one of those two also trying to stop the other from killing the assassin).

But that just establishes the possibility of a vessel not being noticed.

I do something similar to this. For me and my group, realism plays more prominence. If a vessel for the blood would be there(certain success), it will be there regardless of importance to the character. We don't feel that it lessens the importance to the PC just because no roll was involved. If the vessel for the blood would not be there(certain failure), it won't be there regardless of the importance to the character. We feel that it would cheapen the PC's story to include something that should not be there. Only if the result is uncertain is there a roll involved.

The more important perspective, for me, is the real-world, pacing-the-game-at-the-table perspective. I GM along the lines of "say 'yes' or roll the dice". Here is how Luke Crane describes the idea (BW Gold, p 72):

Unless there is something at stake in the story you have created, don’t bother with the dice. Keep moving, keep describing, keep roleplaying. But as soon as a character wants something that he doesn’t have, needs to know something he doesn’t know, covets something that someone else has, roll the dice.​

In the episode of play I described, the character wanted a vessel to catch the blood so he could take it back to his dark naga master. Something was at stake in the story we have created; the character wanted something (a vessel) that he didn't have (his equipment list was clothes, shoes and a stick carved into a staff); and so the dice had to be rolled.

How would it lessen things for you if no roll had happened and the vessel had been there because one would be present in a room where a man is convalescing?
 

pemerton

Legend
How would it lessen things for you if no roll had happened and the vessel had been there because one would be present in a room where a man is convalescing?
If the PC is at a crunch point - "I need a vessel NOW to catch all that precious blood" - and success is automatic, then where is the drama going to come from?

In sole-authored fiction, the author deliberately introduces failures and successes as part of the modulation of the pacing of the story.

In RPGing that is not just authored by the GM, the pacing has to come from somewhere else. The dice do that job. A principle of "Say 'yes' or roll the dice" ensures that sometimes, at the crunch moments, the PC will fail.

A further consequence of rolling the dice is that the player can expend resources to modify the dice roll, and thereby both (i) express the urgency felt by the PC, and (ii) signal his/her own, real life, investment in the outcome.
 

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